Putting an end to the oil and filter debate.

bad04srt · Post by **bad04srt** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:52 pm

So many of you know that I work at Advance Auto Parts and we had a store meeting today and had a long discussion on this subject and I'm going to put an end to this. First of all, let me start by letting you know that European oil specs are MUCH higher than those acceptable in the US. The ONLY synthetic oil sold in the US that is Europe spec. approved is Castrol Syntec. Ask anyone who owns a BMW, Bently, Mercedes or other European car. BMW's oil change interval is 15,000 miles, and it specifically says under the hood, "Use only Castrol Syntec oil." Now that does not mean other synthetic oils are not good. But if you are changing to synthetic oil to increase your change interval, Castrol is the way to go.

Now the big debate. The filter. The following information is based on an independant study testing the filtration rates of the major oil filters. The absolutely worst filters you can buy, based on filtration rate are ACDelco and Motorcraft which both have a filtration rate of about 90%. A regular Fram filter is about 94%. K&N comes in at about 95%, BUT no one tells you that the K&N is made for aftermarket and HIGH FLOW oil pumps ONLY. If you have a stock oil pump the K&N filter is a watse. Mobil 1 is at about 95-97% as well. And to my surprise the top rated filters by filtration rate are the Fram Tough Guard at 98% and the Purolator Pure One at 99%. Please note those are the premium Fram and Purolator filters, not their regular $2 filter. I do have the web site that has these results posted but I cannot remember the link. I will post is as soon as I find it.

Hope this helps.

SlvrACR · Post by **SlvrACR** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:54 pm

Amsoil, Royal Purple?? Its not really the end when you dont carry all the products available.

bad04srt · Post by **bad04srt** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:10 pm

actually we do carry (at least my store does) Royal Purple now, but for the oil it was based on duration, not power.

01WhiteNe0n · Post by **01WhiteNe0n** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:11 pm

Good information to know... is mobil1 filters only for highflow pumps? I guess the site with the stats will help alot, If it has all available products. And what happens if you use k&n with normal stock oil system ?

daaboots · Post by **daaboots** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:22 pm

bad01neon wrote:BMW's oil change interval is 15,000 miles, and it specifically says under the hood, "Use only Castrol Syntec oil."

wow.. i've been using Castrol Syntec from day 1 and eveybody has always been saying bad things about it. Nice to hear that BMW actually recomends it. I change mine every 5000 KM (thats about 3100 Miles). You can call that excessive, but thats just the way i do things.

OverDrive418 · Post by **OverDrive418** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:50 pm

Started using Fram Tough Guard and Mobil 1 synthetic after about the 5th oil change just because I was doing a LOT of highway travel and didn't want to change as frequently, so it's good to hear I got it right the first time!

bad04srt · Post by **bad04srt** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:51 pm

01WhiteNe0n wrote:Good information to know... is mobil1 filters only for highflow pumps? I guess the site with the stats will help alot, If it has all available products. And what happens if you use k&n with normal stock oil system ?

Mobil 1 is a regular filter. K&N is actually a race filter like Wix, but nothing bad will happen. They just sacrifice filtration for flow. But because it is a racing filter, it is made to be changed before 3000 miles. I currently have a K&N on my car because I learned this after my last change, so it wont do anything bad. But save yourself the extra $10 and get a pure-one.

01WhiteNe0n · Post by **01WhiteNe0n** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:07 pm

bad01neon wrote:
01WhiteNe0n wrote:Good information to know... is mobil1 filters only for highflow pumps? I guess the site with the stats will help alot, If it has all available products. And what happens if you use k&n with normal stock oil system ?

Mobil 1 is a regular filter. K&N is actually a race filter like Wix, but nothing bad will happen. They just sacrifice filtration for flow. But because it is a racing filter, it is made to be changed before 3000 miles. I currently have a K&N on my car because I learned this after my last change, so it wont do anything bad. But save yourself the extra $10 and get a pure-one.

Thanks.
I was never to sure about the difference in filters.

getcrunk88 · Post by **getcrunk88** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:17 pm

The K&N filter is a racing oil filter and there is a pressure drop but thats because there is more oil flowing through the filter faster and its nothing to be worried about its a 5 psi difference at idle once the engine starts to build up more oil pressure its pretty much the same pressure as a regular old pos fram filter that usually lets by dirty oil because half the thing is made out of cardboard. and second there is no sacrifice in filtration at all. I am not makin fun of ya or anything but you should do your research before u say stuff like this because they filter better then most filters out there.

bad04srt · Post by **bad04srt** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:08 pm

getcrunk88 wrote:The K&N filter is a racing oil filter and there is a pressure drop but thats because there is more oil flowing through the filter faster and its nothing to be worried about its a 5 psi difference at idle once the engine starts to build up more oil pressure its pretty much the same pressure as a regular old pos fram filter that usually lets by dirty oil because half the thing is made out of cardboard. and second there is no sacrifice in filtration at all. I am not makin fun of ya or anything but you should do your research before u say stuff like this because they filter better then most filters out there.

Actually, you should do yours. Please tell me how a 95% filtration rate of K&N is not a sacrifice compared the 99% filtration rate with a Pure One??? Please note I never said the K&N was a bad filter, because it is quite a good one. But the fact of the matter is their filtration rate is lower than other filters on the market. So before you jump on me you should check that out.

My boss at work is a triple ASC certified technician and former pro stock drag racer. He is the one that showed me these results, but like I said, I cannot remember the link so I'll try and find it tommorrow when I work. The main part of the study wasn't to debate over which was the best, because that is an opinion. The study simply states the filtration rates of the filters for different micron sizes. I figured Fram would be last, but was very surprised when AcDelco tied with Motorcraft for last. I also figured K&N and Mobil1 would be the top 2, but neither were. That doesnt mean they are good filters, it just means they dont have as high a filtration rate as the Pure One.

getcrunk88 · Post by **getcrunk88** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:16 pm

well first of all where is this info coming from that K&N has a 95% filtration rate? and whats the micron size that a pure one filter lets by id really like to know and @ what micron is pure one rated at 99% at?

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:06 am

bad01neon wrote:So many of you know that I work at Advance Auto Parts and we had a store meeting today and had a long discussion on this subject and I'm going to put an end to this. First of all, let me start by letting you know that European oil specs are MUCH higher than those acceptable in the US. The ONLY synthetic oil sold in the US that is Europe spec. approved is Castrol Syntec. Ask anyone who owns a BMW, Bently, Mercedes or other European car. BMW's oil change interval is 15,000 miles, and it specifically says under the hood, "Use only Castrol Syntec oil." Now that does not mean other synthetic oils are not good. But if you are changing to synthetic oil to increase your change interval, Castrol is the way to go.

Now the big debate. The filter. The following information is based on an independant study testing the filtration rates of the major oil filters. The absolutely worst filters you can buy, based on filtration rate are ACDelco and Motorcraft which both have a filtration rate of about 90%. A regular Fram filter is about 94%. K&N comes in at about 95%, BUT no one tells you that the K&N is made for aftermarket and HIGH FLOW oil pumps ONLY. If you have a stock oil pump the K&N filter is a watse. Mobil 1 is at about 95-97% as well. And to my surprise the top rated filters by filtration rate are the Fram Tough Guard at 98% and the Purolator Pure One at 99%. Please note those are the premium Fram and Purolator filters, not their regular $2 filter. I do have the web site that has these results posted but I cannot remember the link. I will post is as soon as I find it.

Hope this helps.

Uh lets see here???

Castrol Syntec run to BMW Oil Life Monitor change intervals have terrible Used oil analysis. Mobil1 meets many if not all of the Euro specs too. Heck Mercedes Benz uses Mobil1 not Castrol. As far as your numbers, who tested and what numbers are being reported at what micron level.

You need to check out the BITOG.

You want to know the BEST filter.....

Easy AMSOIL EaO series. It is a microglass filter which has an effective filter rate of 90% better than a standard filter. A guy from Ohio who is an actively employed Lubrication Engineer did a test where he took a sample of Mobil1 out of a bottle, then ran said Mobil1 for 1500 miles on a Toyota oil filter and sampled, then installed an Amsoil EaO filter and topped off the existing oil and then ran another 1500 and sampled again.

These are the 1500 and 3000 miles UOA (Used Oil Analysis) sample results...

OEM oil filter PC vs. Amsoil EaO57 Oil filter PC
>4 Microns = 1,817 particles, 128 particles
>6 microns = 990 particles, 70 particles
>14 microns = 168 particles, 12 particles
>25 microns = 34 particles, 2 particles
>50 microns = 3 particles, 0 particles
>100 microns = 0 particles, 0 particles

Could not find the New Oil Sample but it was between the 1500 mile and 3000 mile samples for particle counts. Yup new oil was dirtier than 3K old oil.

These results are also backed up by the analysis of an independent Oil Analysis Guru who interprets the reading for people and helps them with OCI and even viscosity and filter choices. Samples even laser checked for second method verification.

Some of the High end FRAMs are quoting efficiency of up to 99% but at what particle sizes???

As far as testing goes K&N, Mobil1, PureOne are fine filters in normal use and UOA after UOA have proven that. EaO is a cut above. And if you wonder if such efficiency is going to plug up, nope. Actual testing found that they last 2 to 4 times conventional media.

Going back to oil, many of the cars we have in America do their best on XW-20 or 30. Most Euro-Spec cars use 5W-40 over their as the normal oil. Not necessarily the best performing. For long drains, Amsoil holds up fantastically, Mobil1 while not quite as nice does well too. Castrol only goes so far. The best version has been 0W-30 made in Germany which in itself is almost a 40 weight, unlike the 5W-20 and 30 which are closer to the 20-30 border. You'd find that OW-30 is actually thicker at room temp than it 5W-30 cousin. Yup, does not seem possible but it is. Heck even down around 0F it still is. Not till you get down real far does its Zero rating show up.

For a 2GN Neon the best oils would be dependent on driving habits and OCI(Oil Change Interval) you want to run. Pennzoil Platinum has shown fantastic results and so has many others. If you run max of 3M/3K OCI then for the most part you can get away with any SM Dino. If you run more than that then you need to sample your Dino to check TBN for active additive life remaining(most name brands goto 5K without difficulty but beyond that become a crap shoot). Other option is to go to Synthetic. Then you can easily go 5-10K But sample to go past 7.5K. The better the filter the more life you get out of the oil.

If you like to truly race then Redline is probably your beast, if you just like to go onto 15K OCI then you need to start looking at Amsoil. Mobil1 as shown to go nearly as long.

Your store meeting unfortunately has been a bit off.

Mobil 1 0W-40 has the following builder approvals:
BMW LL-01
Daimler Chrysler 229.3/229.5
Opel Long Life Service Fill GM-LL-A-025
Opel Diesel Service Fill GM-LL-B-025
Porsche Approved
Volkswagen 502.00/505.00,503.01

Pennzoil Platinum exceeds:
• North American warranty requirements for U.S., European and Japanese cars and light trucks with gasoline and gasoline turbo-charged engines where API SM, SL, SJ or SH are specified
• North American warranty requirements for U.S., European and Japanese cars and light trucks with diesel engines where API CF oils are specified
• ILSAC GF-4, GF-3 and GF-2 Energy Conserving performance standards (5W-20, 5W-30 & 10W-30)
• Meets Chrysler MS 6395 (5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30)
• Meets Ford WSS-M2C153-H and WSS M2C930-A (5W-20) and WSS-M2C929-A (5W-30)
• Meets GM 6094 specification (SAE 5W-20, 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30)
• Meets Corvette GM 4718 for high temperature protection (5W-30 & 10W-30)
• Meets GM 9986231 (5W-30) and GM 9986202 (5W-20)
• Meets the European ACEA A1-02, A5-02 (5W-20*, 5W-30, 10W-30) (Note *: Meets engine protection requirements only)

And for the Pennzoil that is not even their Euro Spec stuff which they serve up too.

Time to ask them at work what the heck???

Midnight_Rider · Post by **Midnight_Rider** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:24 am

All I know is what the owners manual for my SRT recommends (Mobil1 for "spirited" driving, 3K interval with Mopar filter). As long as I have the extra-cost warranty, I will follow CG's recommedations to the letter. Yeah, good ol' "Gramps"- doesn't race, just putts along to the SSI office once a month to get his check.

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:32 am

That is a safe recommendation and they recommend Mobil1 due to kick backs from Mobil. Can you use synthetics from Shell, Q, Pennzoil, Havoline, Chevron, Valvoline, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Redline, etc., etc., etc., etc. without any difficulty or danger. Sure.

getcrunk88 · Post by **getcrunk88** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:51 am

Thanks you ewetho, i knew i wasn't going crazy and if i had access to amsoil products i would most definitely go with them i have heard very good things about all of amsoils products including my uncle that used it on his 30 thousand dollar harley and said just by changing the oil to amsoil the air cooled bike normal operation temp went down 10 degrees in 98 degree weather and plus it protects better than any other oil

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:54 am

*shrugs* it all looks the same to me.

Post by **racer12306** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:31 am

Just because someone is ASC certified doesn't mean that they know about oil. It means when there is something that needs to be fixed, they can do it.

Also, just because someone was a racecar driver doesn't mean they know oil. It means they know what oil will cause the least amount of parasidic drag on the internal moving parts of their engine, thus making more power.

Based on what I have read on Bob is the Oil Guy, where some of the members are actually oil experts, unlike my corny title. I agree with everything that ewetho has stated in this thread. He frequents that BITOG so he would be upto date on oil stuff, more so than me. I haven't really frequented that board lately because of a lack of time to do so. I do pop in every now and again.

In all seriousness, what is your bosses name? I'm really curious.

getcrunk88 · Post by **getcrunk88** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:16 am

Post by **racer12306** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:37 pm

getcrunk88 wrote:

at me?

koreysxt · Post by **koreysxt** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:02 pm

ewetho (BITOG guru) = oil expert (or close to)
AAP employees = not-so oil exports (sorry)

I think the Syntec you are referring to is the GC (German Castrol). In the US, I think it can only be found in 0w30 at Autozones.

GC is a TRUE synthetic. Made from PAO/Esters, not Group III.
The other Castrol Syntecs are not true synthetics.

It'll say "Made in Germany" on the back.

There are many different filter studies out there -- with many different results. It highly depends on your application and oil-change intervals. For some, the "orange can of death" may do fine for 3000 miles. For those going 15k mi OCI, they may want the M1 or Amsoil.

getcrunk88 · Post by **getcrunk88** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:19 pm

bad01neon wrote:
getcrunk88 wrote:The K&N filter is a racing oil filter and there is a pressure drop but thats because there is more oil flowing through the filter faster and its nothing to be worried about its a 5 psi difference at idle once the engine starts to build up more oil pressure its pretty much the same pressure as a regular old pos fram filter that usually lets by dirty oil because half the thing is made out of cardboard. and second there is no sacrifice in filtration at all. I am not makin fun of ya or anything but you should do your research before u say stuff like this because they filter better then most filters out there.

Actually, you should do yours. Please tell me how a 95% filtration rate of K&N is not a sacrifice compared the 99% filtration rate with a Pure One??? Please note I never said the K&N was a bad filter, because it is quite a good one. But the fact of the matter is their filtration rate is lower than other filters on the market. So before you jump on me you should check that out.

My boss at work is a triple ASC certified technician and former pro stock drag racer. He is the one that showed me these results, but like I said, I cannot remember the link so I'll try and find it tommorrow when I work. The main part of the study wasn't to debate over which was the best, because that is an opinion. The study simply states the filtration rates of the filters for different micron sizes. I figured Fram would be last, but was very surprised when AcDelco tied with Motorcraft for last. I also figured K&N and Mobil1 would be the top 2, but neither were. That doesnt mean they are good filters, it just means they dont have as high a filtration rate as the Pure One.

<------ thats what i meant lmfao sorry racer12306

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:43 pm

Any more questions just ask will do my best to get open honest answers. Yes I am both an Amsoil and Redline fan but for certain apps there are other equally fine choices. Heck even commended a Mobil1 report the other day that was doing fabulous things in one guys engine on long drains. So don't think you'll just get an Amsoii pitch. I actually do not sell it. OK, at least not yet. Might some day.

That goes with one exception....Amsoil EaO filters are the #&%*!

KrackstaR · Post by **KrackstaR** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:49 pm

well my BMW said Castrol on it, but it also has a filtration system that aids the filter, or something like that, thats what the BMW tech told me when i asked about the 15,000 oil changes. and the reason its like 90 bucks...lol

scneonchic · Post by **scneonchic** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:33 pm

My volvo says castrol oil only and reccomends oil changes every 7500 miles.

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:47 pm

BMW comes with a SO SO filter and UOA says that the full run when not driven highway miles the whole time is pushing it a bit too far. And it is 90 bucks due to probably about 8 quarts of synthetic and a BMW filter at dealership prices.

Would not go that far on Castrol Syntec myself without UOA to back it up with my driving style and usage. 10K would make me a whole lot happier. I'd suspect better results out of Mobil1 or Amsoil but still would want UOA to verify it before going that far on faith. I'd start at 10K, 12K, and then up to 15K depending on TBN results, insolubles, fuel dilution, viscosity breakdown and wear numbers. If you get good results then by all means but if it starts to get icky who cares what the OLM says change it.

That much oil and 10K intervals makes a lot of sense but not much more.

Why are we talkin' 'bout BMW's????

Anyway still Castrol Syntec GC oW-30 is great oil, not necessarily the best but very good for many apps. The rest is just run of the mill GrpIII synthetic and just OK. Better than dino, but the only one to meet Euro specs? NOPE. The absolute best? NOPE. Good oil and a decent choice? YUP.

For a Neon a synthetic 0W,5W-30 would be a great choice if you want to go over 3K OCI. If you want to stick with just 3K then conventional is just fine. Heck I just did a UOA of the old Havoline 10W-30 no less during winter with couple weeks of subzero morning weather and it was fantastic. One caveat is that I did use an FL-300 filter to get a full fie quarts of oil in the car. Makes me feel better.

Like I said before do I prefer synthetics, yeah, do I say you have to use them or your engine won't last 250K miles. Nope. Should be able to do that on modern dino just fine. Will the odds go up on synthetics, I believe they do.

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:20 pm

I just wanted to throw this in here --- I about died when I heard this

A guy I worked with drives a 1990 Geo Storm (he weighs 450 lbs, thats another story though

) and he bought the car new in 1990 and never once has changed the oil.

200,000+ miles later, has still just adds oil into it every so often.

I cant believe it. Oh yeah, he tried to remove the OEM spark plugs (I mean original installed at factory!!!) and one of them is in there rusted solid... car runs like crap, but it still runs. On original filter and no oil changes. He says he doesnt believe in all that and that the car comp. say to do it because they are all in league with the oil comp. who are in league with the gov't...

ewetho · Post by **ewetho** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:54 pm

I knew a guy wh was that way too but never did see how his Nissan Harbody Pickup ended up.

Kind of liked those cars.... Ah well.

Post by **racer12306** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:56 pm

it is weird how some people can get away with that, and then others will lock up and engine in 50000 miles.

Midnight_Rider · Post by **Midnight_Rider** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:05 am

ewetho wrote:That is a safe recommendation and they recommend Mobil1 due to kick backs from Mobil. Can you use synthetics from Shell, Q, Pennzoil, Havoline, Chevron, Valvoline, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Redline, etc., etc., etc., etc. without any difficulty or danger. Sure.

I stick with what the manual says so that there won't ever be a warranty question with DaimlerBends. I'm not a mechanic so I paid out the whazoo to get an extended warranty. I used to do the oil change and lube stuff on my old 1GN but gave up on that when I got my '02 SXT. And I'm certainly not going to chance anything on the SRT, what with all of the exotic stuff on it that is way beyond my comprehension. Yeah, boring, I know...

Post by **racer12306** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:15 am

as long as you keep good records, with receipts, dates and mileage's the dealer can't throw a fit.

they can't say that you have to have your car serviced by a mechanic on something as simple as an oil change.

but i understand where you are coming from, as dealers can be a pain in the ass.

2GN.ORG

Putting an end to the oil and filter debate.

Putting an end to the oil and filter debate.

Re: Putting an end to the oil and filter debate.

Re: Putting an end to the oil and filter debate.