Why a 40 series looks stupid on 17" rimz and a Neon

lambostealth · Post by **lambostealth** » Thu May 03, 2007 10:24 pm

LOL, gotcha......It's all good, it's just that this guy thinks it's cool to rig his car, then drive it on the road where my friends and family drive

.

oklamopar · Post by **oklamopar** » Thu May 03, 2007 11:17 pm

Me personally, have seen rigged cars from people who shouldn't be allowed to put fuel in there own car.
I would rather have someone that has mechanical ability to to some slight modifying to make something that would normally not work to be incorporated into their ride for cheap.
most old hot rods have some sort of "rigging" done to them.
I took some picks of my struts. on the front i didn't have to manipulate the perch much. and well on the rear i probably took a bit to much off but its survived two trips to Colorado and 20k of Bad city streets and nothings broken as of yet.
"front"

"rear"

lambostealth · Post by **lambostealth** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:05 am

UNFUCKINBELIEVABLE!!!

Do you drive your family around in this thing.......and I'll leave the "I have been doing it this way for X amount of time".

Get the right sized tires for you freaking car. What a joke.

I would rather have someone that has mechanical ability to to some slight modifying to make something that would normally not work to be incorporated into their ride for cheap.

I have a problem with that part......I don't consider mechanical ability the gumption to start hacking away at suspension bits to make a TIRE AND WHEEL package, of all things, fit.

I'm so done in this thread, it looks like there are more people unsafely driving down the road than I care to know about.....

By the way, lolelectricbluesxt, remember what we were ytalking about when we were doing my coilovers, and your wheels? This is the type of crap I was talking about.

I mean, what if you went to sell your car, I gaurantee you would forget about the hacking of the perches, or taking a mallet to them in the description of the car. I would park the car in your front living room if I bought that crap from you and found out you endangered my life. Can you imagine the lawsuit you could have.....I mean, if someone wanted to be a dick, that could be considered, premedetated, attempted manslaughter.

Come on guys, you HONESTLY think this crap is smart, safe, or the right way to do things.

I will save this thread incase either one of you decide you want to open some sort of "tuning shop"

What a joke.

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:23 am

lambostealth · Post by **lambostealth** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:29 am

Sorry for the rant, but I hate rigged crap on cars worse than the uber ricers........unpainted bumpers have nothing on a clean sport compact wearinng only one lug, or heated/cut coils, missing bolts on suspension, hell, I konw a guy with a Neon that trimmed his rear trailing arm just to clear a rim!! I knew then that he knew absolutely nothing about cars.

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Fri May 04, 2007 8:42 am

lambostealth wrote:I'm so done in this thread, it looks like there are more people unsafely driving down the road than I care to know about.....

Obviously, you're not.

TheNumberOneD · Post by **TheNumberOneD** » Fri May 04, 2007 9:37 am

...

i have 205/50's on my stock struts just fine.

On 15 inch rims!!! BITCHES!!!

Post by **racer12306** » Fri May 04, 2007 9:53 am

^^^

i see where you are coming from lambo. it pains me to see how rigged up some cars can be. im all for saving money, but not when it could potentially endanger peoples wellbeing

KrackstaR · Post by **KrackstaR** » Fri May 04, 2007 10:52 am

I cant fake I am big on safety too I get on my buddies all the time driving around without airbags in there cars and no racing harness. To me that's a no no but some people don't care and comment that cars back in the day didn't have airbags too, but i'm like yea back in the day the cars were actually metal not fibreglass and plastic. lol

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Fri May 04, 2007 11:01 am

*random thought* oOoOoOoOoOo... harnesses... i wants me summa those.... *starts search*

hansken_yo · Post by **hansken_yo** » Fri May 04, 2007 11:07 am

KrackstaR wrote:I cant fake I am big on safety too I get on my buddies all the time driving around without airbags in there cars and no racing harness. To me that's a no no but some people don't care and comment that cars back in the day didn't have airbags too, but i'm like yea back in the day the cars were actually metal not fibreglass and plastic. lol

yeah... man... I didn't think much of my airbags till I had to use them...

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Fri May 04, 2007 11:22 am

...As if going fast doesn't risk people's lives, either.

Some of you guys are cool, but a few of you are not only hypocrites, but wussies

Lots of things you do endangers lives, breaks the law, and otherwise puts stresses on your car not intended by the manufacturer.

Not everything that is "good" or "sound" is bought. And not everyone with the mechanical ability to modify something is a "mechanic" by trade. The bottom line is those of you bitching are just doing so because it doesn't fall into your line of "correctness", and then calling up "safety concerns" because it suits you here

Having seen the cutouts, they aren't significant enough to cause an issue... I've seen many a car successfully road raced with crazier "rigging" done to their spring perches for clearance. I guess the DSM guys have more balls than some of you do.

For those of you who posted pictures, thanks. Gives better perspective. Will I do this? Quite possibly... I haven't decided. If I buy the Konis, then no, I'll wait. If not, then yes.

As far as I am concerned, I've said what I'm going to say here, the rest is just flamez back and forth, and if the moderators choose to, they can lock this puppy up with the rest of the dead horse threads.

TNK · Post by **TNK** » Fri May 04, 2007 11:37 am

ibtl......

bitches.

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Fri May 04, 2007 11:43 am

Lambo, my reference to PERSONAL experience is not limited to doing anything like said above post (rigging) - it can include personal experience to friends, knowing people, or just learning from others mistakes in general. Mmmk??

Post by **racer12306** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:30 pm

Arro wrote: Having seen the cutouts, they aren't significant enough to cause an issue...

how do you know?

have you performed the calculations on it?

knowing what i know about the engineering world, yes i am an engineer in training, if they thought they could get away with using less material, they would have. less material means something costs less.

just because people road race with rigged up suspsensions doesnt make it right

its not a matter of having balls or not either. your basically saying that everyone that doesnt want to eff with their suspension are pussies.

03sxt · Post by **03sxt** » Fri May 04, 2007 3:38 pm

Opi wrote:lowering your car would help out 10x more

Yeah, lowering the car makes it look non-ridiculous.

lolelectricbluesxt · Post by **lolelectricbluesxt** » Fri May 04, 2007 4:31 pm

Arro wrote:
Some of you guys are cool, but a few of you are not only hypocrites, but wussies Lots of things you do endangers lives, breaks the law, and otherwise puts stresses on your car not intended by the manufacturer.

Not everything that is "good" or "sound" is bought. And not everyone with the mechanical ability to modify something is a "mechanic" by trade. The bottom line is those of you bitching are just doing so because it doesn't fall into your line of "correctness", and then calling up "safety concerns" because it suits you here

Having seen the cutouts, they aren't significant enough to cause an issue... I've seen many a car successfully road raced with crazier "rigging" done to their spring perches for clearance. I guess the DSM guys have more balls than some of you do.

I can not roll my eyes hard enough.

Chibits12 · Post by **Chibits12** » Fri May 04, 2007 9:49 pm

Then again, there are plenty of people, not just Neon owners in general, that would do something like this so we can't really find out who rigs their car or not, right?

I'm not taking sides, I'm just saying that as far as safety is concerned, I'd go with safety. Not being a wuss, just good old common sense.

Then again, my car's completely stock so what the hell do I know

60trim · Post by **60trim** » Fri May 04, 2007 10:50 pm

How did I miss all this ruckus?

Post by **racer12306** » Fri May 04, 2007 10:51 pm

theres no ruckus

rOniN · Post by **rOniN** » Sat May 05, 2007 1:49 am

That was a good read...

well I guess we can send this one to mythbusters and see what they come up with. They have a neon in their arsenal.

I would just like to say that things are engineered for a reason. That is why people go to school for a long time and get paid good money. I'm with Frank on this one...

01NeonR/T · Post by **01NeonR/T** » Sat May 05, 2007 6:46 am

racer12306 wrote:
knowing what i know about the engineering world, yes i am an engineer in training, if they thought they could get away with using less material, they would have. less material means something costs less.

Let me just say this'll be an essay. I'd have to disagree with you on that. Total material cost is a considerable factor when items are designed and manufactured, but the process of manufacturing, in my opinion, takes precedence in cost as the material cost is included in its calculations. If I CNC'd a spring perch as opposed to using either a die-cast or maybe even a stamped piece of steel, I'm pretty sure that I could eliminate quite a bit of material from the CNC design by crunching the numbers, doing a stress analysis, etc etc, but the constant CNC cost (both time cost and direct cost) would overshadow the Die cast or stamped steel processes in the long run, which both can't attain the precision of CNC. Think about it. Why aren't all cars equipped with CNC'd Coilovers that cost three times a stock stamped suspension when it obviously weighs less? Cost is a driving factor yes, but all types of cost. Making the part with as little material as they can get away with, if they can make it cheaper by adding a half pound of steel, but costs 1/2 the price to make, they will. From one engineer in training to another.

Having said that. When I put a set of 225/45/17 ADR bronze rims on my car, it would not fit the rear, even with spacers. It was a width problem, as the shoulder of the tire would rub the very inside of the spring perch. I made a decision that many of you might loathe, but I made it. I ground a little bit of material off the rear spring perch to clear it. It was about 1/8" in height, 1 inch in length, 1/4 inch in width. So let me tell you, I didn't do any exact calculations. But what I did do was run a few approximate numbers. One of them is the Factor of Safety. When parts are designed to handle a certain stress, there is a factor of safety. Basically, if a part has a been built with a factor of safety of 2, basically what is loaded on the part can be doubled before it becomes dangerous, either it hits a yield stress in the elastic region or failure occurs (as in brittle materials). I have no idea what the factor of safety of a spring perch is, but usually when automotive parts are engineered, the factor of safety is somewhere around 4-5. Engine blocks are a very good example of this "over-engineering" (dude, the block can handle 1000hp no problem!). NO major mechanical component is engineered with a F.S. of 1. So, was the decision I made a serious danger to myself and all those around me? You can say yes all you want and say that this could happen and it may happen and this might happen. But probability speaks in my favor, as in the probability that I seriously compromised the factor of safety in the steel to the point of danger on the spring perch based on the properties of steel IN THIS CASE, is very slim. Now I run my stock rims fitted with 205/45/16 tires with spacers on the front (to fit the SRT brakes) cause 225/45/17 tires are too damn expensive.

If you don't know what you're doing, ask for help (like Arro said he's new to Neon's). So if you're sure about this Arro, hope you are safe about it, as just whacking away with reckless abandon is just that, reckless. Safety is a big issue, but Factor of Safety is built into every car. You do anything to it that compromises its original structure, from lambo doors to sway bars to exhaust systems, and the factor of safety changes. People who "rig" suspensions usually know what it is capable of, so no it's not necessarily right, but it's not necessarily guaranteed to fail, as they're just riding closer to that F.S of 1 and possible failure load. You can make the case for either side. People who ride on full coilover systems can be chided as the company who made it may have just made them to fit, not engineered them properly and made from crappy material, threw on a set of springs with stiff rates and what have you. You can mess with the coilovers to the point where they break, or it breaks the car, maybe permanently relocate suspension geometry or something. But it bolts in so it must be good right? Wrong. Maybe Ground Control kits, where you sleeve the spring over the stock shock or your shock of choice!? Gotta mess with the suspension big time there. Same deal with lambo doors, as it usually is known to put undue stress on the face of the door that is not meant to support the doors weight. Now they usually have a bracket that redistributes the weight, but does it solve the problem of having that face of the door subjected to vertical forces? That's just me nit-picking though. What you put on your car can be dangerous if you're not careful. What you do to your car can be too. Make a decision using all the resources you have, and know the risks as they are always there. I made my decision concerning the spring perches, (and if I ever sell them I WILL let people know) based on what I know and what I've done and what I've seen. If you still think this makes me unsafe and lacking in common sense, you may be right, but keep in mind, you may be wrong as well. I know I keep that in mind every day, even while writing this, I could be wrong about this too. Almost all of this thread is opinion based, so that was mine.

Damn that took me like 2 hours to write. I'm pretty sure I didn't get everything down I wanted to but eh my head hurts sleep at 4am...

lilolneon · Post by **lilolneon** » Sat May 05, 2007 7:16 am

simply put i think what lambo is saying is this...

If you cant do it right, dont do it at all.

Post by **racer12306** » Sat May 05, 2007 9:11 am

That was very well put 01NeonR/T. I can say that I still wouldn't do it, but atleast you thought about it and figured some stuff out rather than just wacking away at it.

I do like the idea of grinding away a small portion, instead of taking a hammer to it. Wacking it with a hammer would mess with the geometry of the part, where grinding just takes away some material.

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Sat May 05, 2007 12:40 pm

I am not a "whack at it" kinda guy, I'm far too anal for that. When I say something like that, it's a figure of speech.

Anyways he said what I was trying to say, and as I am indeed new to Neons, I asked the questions, and from enough of you got the answers I need that I can do this, but I would do so as slightly and cleanly as possible.

I wasn't going to write anymore in this thread but his post compelled me to give him kudos for it. So the rest of you think what you want. Some of you were entirely too harsh on me, but I'm not going to spill that over into other threads. We should all have *some* comradere.

Fact (yes, fact) is it's been done and works, and it *should* be ok. But you never know. But then you never know with anything you do, which was his point and (a page ago) mine.

What is more, I never wanted 40 series, I wanted more rubber, and I happen to understand that tires are part of the suspension travel, so going 40 series not only would look wrong with the lip kit I want combined with 1.5" drop (which is also what I said on page 1 post 1) but would take away some of the suspension properties I would have with a 50 series.

I want that extra cushion AND I don't want to be scraping because I'm way too low to the ground just so I can "look good" on 40 series.

Anyways what can be said has been said, farbetter than I could say it.

Post by **racer12306** » Sat May 05, 2007 3:57 pm

little tidbit of information

205/40/17 =185/60/15 in terms of tire height.

the reason there was a difference between your old tires and the 40's is because you were using a tire that was too tall to begin with. so when you put the correct size tire on there, it looked wrong.

but personlly i think the "4x4" look is an optical illusion because the tire heights are the same, or atleast close enough to the same to not make a difference.

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Sat May 05, 2007 5:28 pm

These are 205/55 16, its not "too tall". And yep you're right about the optical illusion.

Post by **racer12306** » Sat May 05, 2007 8:22 pm

205/55/16 = 24.87" tall
185/60/15 (stock) = 23.74" tall

so it was too tall in that sense

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Sat May 05, 2007 8:51 pm

Well there it is in my tagline, a 205/55 16, so you tell me. I don't think so. But then I still like to see some rubber on the sides, not all rims.

Post by **racer12306** » Sat May 05, 2007 8:59 pm

tagline?

afaik non-r/t or non-srt 2gn neons only came with 175/70/14, 185/60/15 and maybe 185/65/14.