Questions on Cams

weber · Post by **weber** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:21 pm

OK, so here i am again on a spending kick. I want to order the #14 crane. I have been told the ones below that do virtually nothing.

NOW, is it necessary to get upgraded springs as well, or will the stock ones handle just fine w/o a raised rev limit. I know it will also pay to get a cam gear so i can have it tuned at the dyno and get 3-5 hp more from my cam.

I've done alot of bolt on stuff, turbo, but never cam work. Just kinda checking to see what im getting into before i go and blow money.

neonsxt0486 · Post by **neonsxt0486** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:39 pm

Actually a number 12 would do good too with the mods you have. With the 14 i wouldnt do it without upgrading springs and retainers. The ones you have will last but not very long.

tamadrumr88 · Post by **tamadrumr88** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:15 pm

like ^ he said. youll need atleast magnum valve springs or higher. getting the 14 over a 12 isnt that hot of an idea without having a magnum/p&p head, raised comp, long tube header, etc - as well as some kind of aftermarket ecu to allow you tap into the higher rpms

weber · Post by **weber** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:51 pm

how much gain is the 12 even worth? i don't know how smart the guy was I talked to, but he said the 12 isn't even noticable

evlneon · Post by **evlneon** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:10 am

as mentioned any cam upgrade you do (mag., crane, etc.) you need to upgrade the springs. but you do NOT need to upgrade the retainers. that's a waste of money because the stock OE retainers will do just fine. if you're that worried about it, order some OE replacements.

GaryHowell · Post by **GaryHowell** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:02 am

The 12 would work great in your case. I recommend upgrading the springs, the stock springs were never designed for that much lift.

Some people like to use the magnum springs, but I look at it like this; Magnum springs are 'stock' springs for a different 'stock' cam. Your planning on putting in good aftermarket cam, run a matching set of aftermarket springs. Stock retainers are fine.

Weber, part of you problem is a lot of kids think bigger is better, and that it why you will here alot of people say run the 14. The secret to a good engine is having matched components, not the biggest components.

01RTNeon · Post by **01RTNeon** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:28 pm

Go with the 14 and the magnum springs. Hundreds of neon owners seem to be happy with the combo. Don't just go with something because one vendor doesn't sell one part so you can't buy the parts from him. Magnum springs were tested with the 14 cam. So they're fine. 50k miles on mine, no problems so far.

unsuper man · Post by **unsuper man** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:00 pm

i believe Gary, but i to have heard countless times mag springs work fine for 14, and with the 12 you can run it on a stock head. its comes down to who you listen to, in any case i think youll be alright.

personily for the money spent on a cam, id go with nitrous.

4whp vs. 75whp hmmm...

but thats just me.

GaryHowell · Post by **GaryHowell** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:00 pm

unsuper man wrote:i believe Gary, but i to have heard countless times mag springs work fine for 14, and with the 12 you can run it on a stock head.

90% of the guys never push them high into the RPM's, because they don't have any AFX PCM. Now with an AFX computer I have seen the Magnum Springs break.

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Sun May 01, 2005 1:11 pm

Just to let you know, i have a 14, ive run arround 40 passes on the 1/4 track, and arround 40 laps in a course running at redline, and over 5,000 miles with STOCK (non magnum) springs!!!!!.

So if your question is will i need new springs for a 12 cam? the answer is NO.

Its a big myth, trust me, i have a 14 with stock springs!, what makes you bend valve in a neon its not the cam profile but the RPM range, if you are running over the stock rev limit, get the springs if not, dont. (im going to get the crane springs but only because im ordering the AFX ecu).

About getting the 14 well, it depends imo of 2 factors.

a 14 kinda chokes on lower rpms, you will se neons with 12cams launch faster than you, you will catch them and pass them easily, so if you are going for the 1/4 mile the 14 is the option, for road racing or stuff id go for the 12.

Also my 14 idles pretty rough (check out vid in the vid section), its loopy and it has lots of vibration, a 12 dont.

And the last thing to think about is that a 14 isnt well exploited with the stock rev limit, so if you will run stock rpm i would think it twice before getting a 14.

weber · Post by **weber** » Sun May 01, 2005 2:08 pm

Baal wrote:Just to let you know, i have a 14, ive run arround 40 passes on the 1/4 track, and arround 40 laps in a course running at redline, and over 5,000 miles with STOCK (non magnum) springs!!!!!.

So if your question is will i need new springs for a 12 cam? the answer is NO.

Its a big myth, trust me, i have a 14 with stock springs!, what makes you bend valve in a neon its not the cam profile but the RPM range, if you are running over the stock rev limit, get the springs if not, dont. (im going to get the crane springs but only because im ordering the AFX ecu).

About getting the 14 well, it depends imo of 2 factors.

a 14 kinda chokes on lower rpms, you will se neons with 12cams launch faster than you, you will catch them and pass them easily, so if you are going for the 1/4 mile the 14 is the option, for road racing or stuff id go for the 12.

Also my 14 idles pretty rough (check out vid in the vid section), its loopy and it has lots of vibration, a 12 dont.

And the last thing to think about is that a 14 isnt well exploited with the stock rev limit, so if you will run stock rpm i would think it twice before getting a 14.

Thanks for the info. All of you have been a big help.

Im thinking im gonna go with a #12 grind. I don't plan on getting a new PCM as of right now, so I see the #14 will just be kind of a waste. I am going for more of a 1/4 car than anything, so the extra low end will be nice to rocket me outta the whole.

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Sun May 01, 2005 4:07 pm

Remember i said the 14 is faster in the 1/4 even with the stock rev limit, he will launch faster, but you will eventually catch and pass him, anyway if you are not going hardcore i'd say the 12 it works great, sounds very good and have a good low-end torque, with non of the draw backs

GaryHowell · Post by **GaryHowell** » Sun May 01, 2005 7:28 pm

We ran the Crane Prototypes of the 10, 12, 14 with stock springs. The 14's did damage the cams because of stock springs allowing the rockers to bounce.

Baal wrote:Just to let you know, i have a 14, ive run arround 40 passes on the 1/4 track, and arround 40 laps in a course running at redline, and over 5,000 miles with STOCK (non magnum) springs!!!!!.

So if your question is will i need new springs for a 12 cam? the answer is NO.

Its a big myth, trust me, i have a 14 with stock springs!, what makes you bend valve in a neon its not the cam profile but the RPM range, if you are running over the stock rev limit, get the springs if not, dont. (im going to get the crane springs but only because im ordering the AFX ecu).

About getting the 14 well, it depends imo of 2 factors.

a 14 kinda chokes on lower rpms, you will se neons with 12cams launch faster than you, you will catch them and pass them easily, so if you are going for the 1/4 mile the 14 is the option, for road racing or stuff id go for the 12.

Also my 14 idles pretty rough (check out vid in the vid section), its loopy and it has lots of vibration, a 12 dont.

And the last thing to think about is that a 14 isnt well exploited with the stock rev limit, so if you will run stock rpm i would think it twice before getting a 14.

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Mon May 02, 2005 1:24 am

GaryHowell wrote:We ran the Crane Prototypes of the 10, 12, 14 with stock springs. The 14's did damage the cams because of stock springs allowing the rockers to bounce.

Baal wrote:Just to let you know, i have a 14, ive run arround 40 passes on the 1/4 track, and arround 40 laps in a course running at redline, and over 5,000 miles with STOCK (non magnum) springs!!!!!.

So if your question is will i need new springs for a 12 cam? the answer is NO.

Its a big myth, trust me, i have a 14 with stock springs!, what makes you bend valve in a neon its not the cam profile but the RPM range, if you are running over the stock rev limit, get the springs if not, dont. (im going to get the crane springs but only because im ordering the AFX ecu).

About getting the 14 well, it depends imo of 2 factors.

a 14 kinda chokes on lower rpms, you will se neons with 12cams launch faster than you, you will catch them and pass them easily, so if you are going for the 1/4 mile the 14 is the option, for road racing or stuff id go for the 12.

Also my 14 idles pretty rough (check out vid in the vid section), its loopy and it has lots of vibration, a 12 dont.

And the last thing to think about is that a 14 isnt well exploited with the stock rev limit, so if you will run stock rpm i would think it twice before getting a 14.

Well i can only talk about my own experience wich thankfully isnt the same as urs.

05srt4clone · Post by **05srt4clone** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:16 am

How much horsepower gain is there by putting the 12 cam and upgraded springs?

solodogg · Post by **solodogg** » Mon May 02, 2005 12:49 pm

GaryHowell wrote:Some people like to use the magnum springs, but I look at it like this; Magnum springs are 'stock' springs for a different 'stock' cam. Your planning on putting in good aftermarket cam, run a matching set of aftermarket springs. Stock retainers are fine.

using that logic...stock retainers are designed for stock springs and stock cams...so use a matching set. Infact...there have been mixed results using crane springs over magnum springs. I look at it this way...the crane #12 and the '01 magnum cam are very close in actual specs...if the stock magnum springs can handle the magnum cam...and the crane is damn near identical...they will hold fine. Also, they are cheaper than crane springs.

GaryHowell wrote:Weber, part of you problem is a lot of kids think bigger is better, and that it why you will here alot of people say run the 14. The secret to a good engine is having matched components, not the biggest components

wow..and see you think we never agree....

GaryHowell · Post by **GaryHowell** » Mon May 02, 2005 1:26 pm

solodogg wrote:
GaryHowell wrote:Some people like to use the magnum springs, but I look at it like this; Magnum springs are 'stock' springs for a different 'stock' cam. Your planning on putting in good aftermarket cam, run a matching set of aftermarket springs. Stock retainers are fine.
using that logic...stock retainers are designed for stock springs and stock cams...so use a matching set.

A spring is made of different pressures for different lifts of cams. The Crane Retainers are made the same as the stock ones, but from a lighter material. The function is the same weither the retainer is made from steel or titanium, the spring on the other hand has function that is different from the stock. The Crane spring is designed to work with cams of higher lifts, durations, and ramp speeds.

solodogg wrote: Infact...there have been mixed results using crane springs over magnum springs. I look at it this way...the crane #12 and the '01 magnum cam are very close in actual specs...if the stock magnum springs can handle the magnum cam...and the crane is damn near identical...they will hold fine. Also, they are cheaper than crane springs.

Lift and duration are close but you have difference in ramps speeds which also becomes a factor. Mopar has to be concerned with emissions and warranty. Crane is only concerned about making power, thus they adjust the ramp speed which changes the load on the springs.

solodogg · Post by **solodogg** » Mon May 02, 2005 2:10 pm

wait a second, you expect people to believe that the springs will actually have extra stress placed on them because the speed that the cam goes from minimum to maximum lift is quicker than the magnum cam? have you smoked yourself stupid today?

Springs are designed to work with specific height and pressure...not how fast or slow they compress. Or am i a total retard, and forgot that they can actually manufacture springs differently to make them able to withstand compression faster...even though they are the exact same material, and stiffness? Nope, didn't think so...

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:28 pm

solodogg wrote:wait a second, you expect people to believe that the springs will actually have extra stress placed on them because the speed that the cam goes from minimum to maximum lift is quicker than the magnum cam? have you smoked yourself stupid today?

Springs are designed to work with specific height and pressure...not how fast or slow they compress. Or am i a total retard, and forgot that they can actually manufacture springs differently to make them able to withstand compression faster...even though they are the exact same material, and stiffness? Nope, didn't think so...

So if how fast it lifts doesnt matter does that mean that the RPMs will neve float a spring, doesnt matter if you run 12,000rpms with the stock valve lift they will never float o_O?

solodogg · Post by **solodogg** » Mon May 02, 2005 3:46 pm

you are missing the point her sir..valves don't float because the spring compresses or decompresses too quickly...but infact because the limits of the compression or tension has been reached. if there is less tension on the valve, it could be perfectly fine at lower engine speeds...but at the higher engine speed, with no tension on it, it will float. hence why we put stiffer springs in to combat this problem. It has absolutely nothing to do with how fast the spring goes from maximum to minimum compression.

GaryHowell · Post by **GaryHowell** » Mon May 02, 2005 4:43 pm

He understands

Ramp speed is directly related to valve float. If the ramp is steep, you need a high pressure spring. As the valve goes from max lift to zero lift, the spring pressure is what closes it. If the spring pressure is to light, the valvetrain looses contact and then it catches up it slams the compenents together damaging parts over time. The higher spring pressure keeps everything in contact, preventing damage and giving you the performance designed into your Crane Cam

That is why the Magnum springs are not a good choice with a Crane cam. The Magnum springs are not designed for the faster ramp speed of the Crane Cam.

solodogg wrote:you are missing the point her sir..valves don't float because the spring compresses or decompresses too quickly...but infact because the limits of the compression or tension has been reached. if there is less tension on the valve, it could be perfectly fine at lower engine speeds...but at the higher engine speed, with no tension on it, it will float. hence why we put stiffer springs in to combat this problem. It has absolutely nothing to do with how fast the spring goes from maximum to minimum compression.

05srt4clone · Post by **05srt4clone** » Mon May 02, 2005 4:45 pm

05srt4clone wrote:How much horsepower gain is there by putting the 12 cam and upgraded springs?

solodogg · Post by **solodogg** » Mon May 02, 2005 5:09 pm

okay, so considering that the magnum spring and the crane spring are damn near identical spring rates...how can the crane possibly be any better than the magnum then if "Ramp speed is directly related to valve float. If the ramp is steep, you need a high pressure spring. " They're both the same stiffnes......

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Mon May 02, 2005 6:08 pm

Well in my opinion what you say doesnt make sense, the speed of max to min lift could make a valve float see it this way.

You compress a spring with your fingers, if you open them faster than the spring can extent to its original shape it will "float", i think same happens with an engine, if the lobe of the cam compresses the spring and the decompresses it faster than the stock spring can the valve will float, atleast thats what my logic says.

On the other side, considering that the 12 and the magnum cam are very alike and my stock non magnum can handle a 14, i'd say magnum springs are pretty capable of taking a 12cam with no problems at all, i know a couple of friends with magnum engines and 12 cams with no problems.

GaryHowell · Post by **GaryHowell** » Mon May 02, 2005 7:02 pm

Baal wrote:Well in my opinion what you say doesnt make sense, the speed of max to min lift could make a valve float see it this way.

You compress a spring with your fingers, if you open them faster than the spring can extent to its original shape it will "float", i think same happens with an engine, if the lobe of the cam compresses the spring and the decompresses it faster than the stock spring can the valve will float, atleast thats what my logic says.

Your exactly correct. This is why two cams with similar lifts and durations can need completely different valve springs. Ramp speed has a dramatic effect.

The untimate performance cam ramp would be a square lobe. Of course a square lob is impossible, that is why peformance cam manufactures try to put steep rams on the cam. At full lift the valve will flow its full amount, but at 1/2 lift it will not flow half, it will flow less than half. That is why you want to get the cam to full lift quickly and you put on a steep ramp.

The steeper the ramp, the higher the valve spring pressure you need. That higher valve spring pressure reduces timing belt life, that is why the factory puts less steep ramps on the stock cams. This way they can run lighter springs for warranty. This explains why the Magnum may have similar lift and duration, but doesn;t yeild the same performance.

solodogg · Post by **solodogg** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:29 am

wait a second...so you're telling me that 2 springs of the same stiffness...one can react faster than the other? How so? The stiffness of the spring is what makes the spring bounce back faster, and take more pressure to compress....not how quickly you compress it. Please explain to me how 2 springs of the same stiffness can differ so much...or how going from fully decompressed to fully compressed quicker is going to hurt a spring of the same stiffness as the ones you claim are stronger...that's all i want to know.

Baal · Post by **Baal** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:37 am

who said that the magnum had the same stiffness than the crane?

solodogg · Post by **solodogg** » Tue May 03, 2005 8:21 am

test them...you will see the results. been there, done that....we ended up using the magnum valve springs since they were infact slightly stiffer than the crane's were.

GaryHowell · Post by **GaryHowell** » Tue May 03, 2005 9:34 am

Baal wrote:who said that the magnum had the same stiffness than the crane?

They are not. The Magnum springs are weaker.

solodogg · Post by **solodogg** » Tue May 03, 2005 11:44 am

no that is a false statement. have you ever tested the 2 springs? sorry...we have. they are not weaker!