engine start failure

pandevida85 · Post by **pandevida85** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:39 am

hey everyone, i need some help. I finally pieced my neon together about a month ago. Due to money shortages I had to relinquish the tranny swap project/write up i was doing to her. But I recently got some cash again and decided to dump it into the car. After a new battery and new battery cables and terminals, I cut into the ecu and wired the clutch cable properly (as stipulated in the wiring diagrams from Dodge's service manual) but car wont start. No clicks, pops, hisses, or hums. No sounds at all. Oh and the wipers wont turn off lol.

I'm left with two options. Its either something with the ignition switch inside in the steering column or its the starter. Any ideas?

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:06 am

What wiring did you hack into?
Keep in mind the PCM sends a signal to the starter relay to kick it over...

pandevida85 · Post by **pandevida85** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:02 am

ok on ECU connector one, I cut #23 which is light green/black wire that is for the clutch switch side of the pedal. On the second connector, wire #76 is normally the "park/neutral position switch sense" in autos but in mtx its the "clutch interlock switch sense". The names are weird but i have the wiring diagrams that explain how each side of the switch for the clutch pedal has those names and stuff. Its not that. I'm definitely sure of it. It was happening BEFORE i did the wiring. IDK if its the starter or something in the lock cylinder.

NOTE: I'm only posting this because almost everyone I've shown the thread to seems to think that its a wiring problem that i made an error.

EDIT: The problem is not with the connection. I've had it double checked over and over again because this is not a recent problem. This problem happened some time ago (about 3 weeks ago). The clutch pedal is wired up correctly. I think it is either the starter that got fried OR something's up with the ignition switch in the steering column because according to my limited know-how of cars, you need a functioning starter, ignition switch and a direct connection to the battery to start the car.

ALL HELP IS APPRECIATED BECAUSE I WANT TO FINISH THIS PROJECT ALREADY!!

pandevida85 · Post by **pandevida85** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:21 pm

ok thats it: I'm tired of this damn neon! no offense to anybody else but i have no idea what to do next. replaced the starter and car still wont start.

asanti · Post by **asanti** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:08 am

Did you ever get this fixed Chris? Make sure the ECU isn't fried...

Later
Allex

pandevida85 · Post by **pandevida85** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:00 pm

ECU is fine. I'm sorry i havent reposted an update but my laptop's charger busted and it ran out of battery soon there after. I spoke to the person who sold the unit to me and it turns out it the ecu has sentry key in it. But when i switched back to the automatic ecu it still wouldnt start. Idk if the ignition switch in the steering column is messed up or if the connector to the starter is messed up. Any ideas?

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:05 pm

Check to see if you are getting a signal to the starter relay. If there is power to the relay coil and it is working see if there is power to the relay contacts. Yor service manual should say what pins are what in the wiring diagrams. if ther is no power to the relay coil then the PCM isn't sending it for some reason. You will prolly have to trace from the battery though the path till you find where the voltage isn't going to the next step. PITA but may be the only way to find out where the problem is. Also try jumping power directly to the starter solenoid just for the comfort of knowing the starter actually works. Ifyou have the key on the engine may start and of couse make sure the brake is set and out of gear ATX or MTX this doesn't matter the car will still move. (for the benefit of anyone reading this)

pandevida85 · Post by **pandevida85** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:48 pm

thanks dude! will do asap! I have the wiring diagram for the car so we'll see how it goes

gski4life · Post by **gski4life** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:37 pm

bump for an answer, mine wont start either

Wizzard~Of~Ozz · Post by **Wizzard~Of~Ozz** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:09 pm

Black/Lt Green is Intermittent Wiper Control, is it possible you used this wire by accident? or did you take it right at the PCM?

Also, pin 31 on the PCM (Tan) -> pos should show +12v when you are trying to start it. (this is the PCM allowing the car to start, no 12v then you should be looking for why the PCM won't allow the car to start. (this is probably easier to meter @ the starter relay, does it get power).. if it does get power, then it's just the relay (you wouldn't hear any clicks.)

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:47 am

I spoke to the person who sold the unit to me and it turns out it the ecu has sentry key in it. But when i switched back to the automatic ecu it still wouldnt start

wait a minute....
you swapped out pcm's?
Here is some quick info for you.....

If you car has sentry(chip key) you must have a sentry pcm programed for your car....
If your car does NOT have sentry, and you install a pcm from a car with sentry, your car will not start.....
There's more details, but that pretty much sums it up.....

gski4life · Post by **gski4life** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:18 pm

how do you know if you got a sentry key PCM by looking at it?

pandevida85 · Post by **pandevida85** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:51 pm

sorry for being dead to this post.

BlackRoseRacing wrote:Quote:
I spoke to the person who sold the unit to me and it turns out it the ecu has sentry key in it. But when i switched back to the automatic ecu it still wouldnt start

wait a minute....
you swapped out pcm's?
Here is some quick info for you.....

If you car has sentry(chip key) you must have a sentry pcm programed for your car....
If your car does NOT have sentry, and you install a pcm from a car with sentry, your car will not start.....
There's more details, but that pretty much sums it up.....

I know about sentry key. I purchased it without knowing if it has sentry key or not the seller never told me. But even then the car should start even if i didnt have a sentry key. The minute I'd let go of the clutch the engine should shut off. I know this because my friend has an 03 sxt he bought at an auction. He did not know he had sentry key though the sales person that walked him through the final purchase told him he could only get the key at the dealership. Refusing to accept having to pay $180 for a spare, he went to Home Depot to get one cut. At first he thought he had re-discovered the wheel when he turned the ignition switch with the newly-carved key and the engine came to life. His high aspirations soon came crashing down and erupting into a giant fireball the minute he let go of the clutch (NOTE: He didnt drop the clutch, he let it off a bit to get the car going he had it in gear). Sorry for the long story, but I want to be clear you know

As far as the engine not turning over, I solved the problem. It was the ASD DESIEL fuse and the FP DESIEL fuse in the fuse box within the engine bay. They had been removed by the previous owner.

A little background info: I received the car in pieces and thats why I pursued the tranny swap. Apparently, the owner had been playing with the fuses. I have, since then, replaced all the fuses within the car.

UPDATE: I got the engine to turn over but the car wont start. We're not getting any gas. I'll have a buddy stand behind the car with his nose to the exhaust and no gas will come out of it (NOTE: I KNOW GAS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO POUR OUT OF THE EXHAUST, we're smelling for gas because since the car wont spark up, the gas should just come out of the exhaust). We check the black rubber fuel line going to the chrome fuel line/bar in the engine bay and when we pull it out and start the car no gas will spurt forth from it neither. I got under the rear of the car to listen and see if the fuel pump would prime but I didnt hear any distinct noise/sounds coming from it. I'm observing a number of possibilities now.

My brother-in-law had left the tank open because I tried to siphon gas out of it. He did this by rdisconnecting the rubber hose that connects the tank to the steel filler hose that runs to the gas tank. When he disconnected the rubber hose, the remaining gas within the tank eventually evaporated. I'm looking at either a busted fuel pump (rusted shut or gunked shut) or a clogged gas line.

Wizzard~Of~Ozz wrote:Black/Lt Green is Intermittent Wiper Control, is it possible you used this wire by accident? or did you take it right at the PCM?

Dammit! I didnt want to post this till I was done doing my How-to tranny swap but whatever

Thats from the FSM. C1 is connector 1 of the ecu connectors. C2 is connector 2 of the ecu connectors. The wire I tapped into was not within the cabin of the car. The wire named Clutch Switch comes from pin #23 of connector 1 of the ecu. It is a light green/black wire (i.e. LG/BK). Then you have the black wire which is in the middle of the switch's connector that is a ground. Then you have the Clutch Interlock Switch Sense which, on the atx ecu, doubles up as the Park Neutral Position Switch Sense. It is pin #76 of connector 2 for the ecu. The MTX wiring harness has the wire colored Yellow/Red (YL/RD) but the automatic is Brown/Yellow (BR/YL) so when wiring it up, you'd have to look for that wire. Since I didnt feel like slicing up all the taping that keeps my wiring harness all nice and neat, I went and clipped the wires close the connectors and just passed some new wires to the pedal through one of the holes already in the firewall. I know I did it right because the car now starts and will cut off if I pop the clutch while starting.

Moving along, I'm looking into A) unclogging the fuel line some how (i.e. using 104 octane booster or just blowing through the line) and/or B) replacing the fuel pump. What do ya'll recommend?

gski4life · Post by **gski4life** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:18 am

Did you check for power going into the ASD relay in the underhood fuse box?

because if you don't hear that relay click then you wont get fuel pressure OR spark....

pandevida85 · Post by **pandevida85** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:59 pm

wow dude great idea!

I'ma add that to my check list

gski4life · Post by **gski4life** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:37 am

yeah your welcome, I'm still tryna get mine to crank.....

Also, check your Crankshaft and Cam Position sensors......if the PCM doesn't see a signal from both of those, it'll de-engergize the ASD relay and you wont have fuel or spark either.

the middle wire on both sensors is the 5v signal output wire

NeonNick925 · Post by **NeonNick925** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:20 pm

I have an 05 sxt, it jus died on my at a stop sign the other day,it has 40,000 on it with cai,header,muffler that's about it for mods.I found the fuse Asd had blown.the car wouldn't start,was acting like the starter was bad.I replaced fuse,she fired right up but now above where the check engine light is there's a red dot glowing??? Does anyone have this or had this problem.any suggestions as to why that fuse popped cuz I'd like to get it fixed but I'm not the greatest at electrical stuff.I had a simialar problem on my 00 plymouth itd pop the number10 fuse under the dash everytime u started it & it had a red dot glowing on the cluster which I thought was from the previous car the cluster came out of as I got the cluster from an 03 sxt...now it sits in my yard undrivable as u can even get it to turn over without it popping the fuse before it fires over.I believe there's something shorting or going to ground somewhere....Any Ideas guys?