2005 sxt im in battle with myself about some mods

Fuzzyneon · Post by **Fuzzyneon** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:13 pm

Now i know the NGC ive been reading quite a bit about it is this even worth modding engine wise? honostly? and if it is what am i looking to get myself into? i want a fun to drive car but i also dont wanna be putting out 500 -1000 dollars just to tune it to allow it to make power anyone here really mod a 03-05? any results? cost ? i really dont know what i should do GUIDE ME lol

own3d5974 · Post by **own3d5974** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:33 am

just like you most likley read.....with out ms you are not really going to see any power increases with bolt-ons but it will sound nicer

........if you want some more power the best thing would to get ms and use the srt turbo setup i see most people get around 210 to the wheels and if you look around hard enough you could piece it together for around $1500 and im sure someone has a ngc turbo map to get it running nice so you dont have to get a tune

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:41 am

ok, here is some standard mods, with some typical results:

CAI: $100 used to $250 new - 1 to 2 hp
60mm TB: $125 used to $250 new - 1 to 2 hp
Magnum Header: $75-$100 used - 2 to 3 hp
2.5" Exhaust with High Flow Muffler: $300 and up - 1 to 2 hp
MSD/Screaming Demon Coil Packs: $50 used to $100 new - no hp
8/8.5mm Plug Wires: $40 and up - no hp
NGK V-Power Plugs: $10 a set - no hp
UDP: $75 used to $250 new - 2 to 3 hp
Short Throw Shifter: $80 used to $140 new - no hp
Booger Bushings: $25 - no hp
Johnnymopar Solid Shifter Cradle Bushings: $10 - no hp
Lowering Springs: lots of choices, from 1gn RT for $50 to Eibach Pros at $250 - no hp
Polyurethane Swaybar Bushings/Endlinks: Prothane's $25 new - no hp
New swaybars: PT GT front $100 new, RT/ACR Rear $75 new - no hp
Strut Tower Bars: $50 new, front and rear - no hp
Camshaft: $100 used to $300 new - 3 to 4 hp
Urethane filled motor mounts/tranny: $35 new - no hp
Magnum Intake Manifold: $150 used on up - 2 to 3 hp
Magnum Head: $250 used

Then there are free mods like removing back seats, interior panels, etc to lighten her up a bit.

Those hp #'s are JUST estimates based on nothing but guesses.

honestly, all the engine mods together should get you to about 125 whp... if you are an mtx.

OR, just bypass all that, buy Megasquirt, tune her to you likings, save you money for a turbo set up and run her into the ground.

TN.Frank · Post by **TN.Frank** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:02 pm

Join the club, LOL, I'm in the same boat(or Neon) as you'er in. I hate the fact that I can't just plug in a lap top and play with my car's computer, I hate the fact that even with a MegaSqurit you'll still throw codes and I hate the fact that NO ONE seems to be doing much to help us '03-'05 NGC guys out.
I've done minor mods(see the Garage area for my list) but until I can get my LSD and Clutch/Flywheel set-up installed(we're talking about $1600 so it'll be a while) I'm not going to worry about power mods. I may sneak a set of tires in there before the LSD but that'll be about it.
If I could trade my '05 for a nice '99 1st Gen with no rust in decent shape and get some cash in the deal I'd probably do it in a heart beat just to get rid of the NGC system and get a PCM that I can play with.

own3d5974 · Post by **own3d5974** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:23 pm

[quote="TN.Frank"] I hate the fact that I can't just plug in a lap top and play with my car's computer, I hate the fact that even with a MegaSqurit you'll still throw codes and I hate the fact that NO ONE seems to be doing much to help us '03-'05 NGC guys out.

well i belive with all programs you will still throw codes....... and theres not enough support for neons to make any company want to make a system just for the 2.0 and ms seems like the best bang for the buck...now if they had a convirsion harness it would be alot easier and practical for everyone

but think of a hondata
p28 pre chipped with hondata-$1100
conversion harness(if obd 0,2a or 2b)-$100
and if you are obd0,2a or 2b you need to change to obd1 sensors and distributor $400+

and you can get ms for less then half of that

Fuzzyneon · Post by **Fuzzyneon** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:29 pm

with ms will I yield a better up gain with thosemods and ms though

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:51 pm

yes, you will get more out of your mods with MS - so to speak.

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:03 pm

You'd make more power bone stock with just a MS. And you would be a ton faster and more consistant in the 1/4 mile with configuration such as launch control. I know doing something like a MS seems absurd, but it's really not as scary as everyone makes it out to be.

Fuzzyneon · Post by **Fuzzyneon** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:04 pm

thanks guys I I think after I fix the winshield wick I found a golf ball in thismornin I'll see what ms kits are gonna be best for me and sludge dr he upgrade

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:46 pm

rs-autosport.com, get the standard neon kit. Get the wiring harness. Get the intake air and coolant sensors. I recommend running the high res code on it. You'll spend around $500 after everything is said and done with it.

OB · Post by OB » Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:04 pm

I really wish the misconception about NGC being the reason that bolt ons dont make power would go away. Bolt ons dont make decent power on ANY car without the proper tune. NO car has a stock PCM that can be plugnplay tuned with a laptop computer. NO naturally aspirated car will gain 20-30hp with a CAI, exhaust, or upgraded ignition system, or even a combination of all the above. The neon, NGC or not, is just like EVERY other entry level compact car on the market. It takes more than a few parts to make horsepower. NGC doesnt rob power, but it does prevent the enthusiast from tuning their engine to its potential. So does every other OBD PCM in the world. The 00-02 neons arent running around with huge HP gains from bolt ons, and this proves that NGC has little or nothing to do with it. Tuning a computer controlled vehicle requires an aftermarket management system, or at the very least, a performance chip (not readly availiable for the neon). These things are 100% necessary to properly tune a performance engine. Period.

Fuzzyneon · Post by **Fuzzyneon** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:43 pm

Ob I understand that and witch is why I'm leaning towards ms I'm not looking for a turbo 200+ hp car just something quick andfun I drive 140 150 ish hp witch I hope to get wth ms and pretty much with bolt one and somemild cams in the future I've got pretty much maddog sts jonney mopar bushins boogers just want that extra pep

TN.Frank · Post by **TN.Frank** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:25 pm

I'll bet I could throw a set of headers and a K&N on a Small block and get an extra 30 HP, LOL. The main problem(and really the only one) that I have with the NGC system is that you have to play the game it's way or no way. If there was a way to turn off the downstream O2 sensor in the NGC system so I could run a cat free exhaust I'd not have a problem with it. If there was a way to tweak the MAP/TPS sensor data so that I could run a 60mm TB without throwing a code I'd not have a problem with it. If there was a way to adjust timing and fuel(a simple way without having to buy an add on computer system like the MS) then I'd not have a problem with it, but there's not so that's what I've got a problem with. The NGC system is probably pretty good for a stock car but it just simply won't allow any fudge factor in the inputs that it sees so it throws a code everytime something is the least bit off and a system that's that touchy is simply not a good system in the "real world" enviroment that we live and race in.

Wenuden · Post by **Wenuden** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:05 pm

but it's not a race car. If you want it to be, you have to compromise and learn new things. Oh yeah, go throw headers and a filter on a new charger hemi... You won't get 30hp out of it.

soul_sword34 · Post by **soul_sword34** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:33 pm

TN.Frank wrote:Join the club, LOL, I'm in the same boat(or Neon) as you'er in. I hate the fact that I can't just plug in a lap top and play with my car's computer, I hate the fact that even with a MegaSqurit you'll still throw codes and I hate the fact that NO ONE seems to be doing much to help us '03-'05 NGC guys out.
I've done minor mods(see the Garage area for my list) but until I can get my LSD and Clutch/Flywheel set-up installed(we're talking about $1600 so it'll be a while) I'm not going to worry about power mods. I may sneak a set of tires in there before the LSD but that'll be about it.
If I could trade my '05 for a nice '99 1st Gen with no rust in decent shape and get some cash in the deal I'd probably do it in a heart beat just to get rid of the NGC system and get a PCM that I can play with.

Or you could just get a 2000-2002

Like the 03-05 body style? They do fit the earlier models.

Fuzzyneon · Post by **Fuzzyneon** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:53 pm

soul_sword34 wrote:
TN.Frank wrote:Join the club, LOL, I'm in the same boat(or Neon) as you'er in. I hate the fact that I can't just plug in a lap top and play with my car's computer, I hate the fact that even with a MegaSqurit you'll still throw codes and I hate the fact that NO ONE seems to be doing much to help us '03-'05 NGC guys out.
I've done minor mods(see the Garage area for my list) but until I can get my LSD and Clutch/Flywheel set-up installed(we're talking about $1600 so it'll be a while) I'm not going to worry about power mods. I may sneak a set of tires in there before the LSD but that'll be about it.
If I could trade my '05 for a nice '99 1st Gen with no rust in decent shape and get some cash in the deal I'd probably do it in a heart beat just to get rid of the NGC system and get a PCM that I can play with.
Or you could just get a 2000-2002 Like the 03-05 body style? They do fit the earlier models.

I love the 1st gen body sorry lol

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:51 am

Wenuden wrote:but it's not a race car. If you want it to be, you have to compromise and learn new things. Oh yeah, go throw headers and a filter on a new charger hemi... You won't get 30hp out of it.

That's because the oem manifold design is far superior than the old days. Even on the magnum smallblocks the header companies had a rough time making a header that out performed the oem mani. hard to charge $300-up for a header that makes less power than the cast iron manifold and be CARB leagal. Plus 30 hp on an older small block with no other mods than the header and a filter is optimistic. 15 maybe!

OB · Post by OB » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:15 am

^Agreed. Couldnt have said it better myself.

TNfrank... You need to understand that the NGC program isnt what's keeping you from adjusting timing, A/F, TPS, etc. ALL OBDII computers on ALL cars have these programs and none of them are tunable without some form of computer upgrade, chip, or reflash. The 00-02 computers arent better than the newer ones. If anything, theyre worse. They use older technology and are just as useless at making power as any other stock factory computer out there. I have yet to see dyno proof (or any other kind) that shows a non-ngc car makes more power with bolt ons than one with the same mods and ngc. The difference is a rumor, and the opinions of most people regarding this subject are complete BS.

Sure, some cars have made big power with reflashes on the factory EEPROM, but many of these cars are powerful and designed to perform from the get-go (EVO, WRX). No tuner makes a flash tune for a neon because it isnt worth it to them. The car doesnt have the enthusiast customer base. The money isnt there. The power potential isnt there. If you want power, swap the srt motor in or sell your car and buy another one. These arent fast cars and IMO dont need to be. They handle well and suit my needs perfectly, and honestly they arent meant for much more.

I just wish people would learn and do some research before talking like they know something.

TN.Frank · Post by **TN.Frank** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:20 am

I could easily get 500 HP out of a '72, 340 Dodge Dart. Parts are available and I can adjust the timing and re-jet the carb without the need for a computer of any kind.
Point is, if the dealer can plug into the OBD II and tweak the computer then why can't we? I guess I should just sell the Neon and get an EVO or WRX so I can do more to the car of hell, I could get a mid 70's Ford Pinto and fix up the 2.3L that's in it. With a modded head, header, cam, duel sidedraft webers, ect. I bet I could get 300 HP out of it and still not have to dick with a damn computer. I just think that someone really needs to pick up the ball where Neons are conserned, especially the '03-'05 ones, and get us some PCM upgrades other then MegaSqurit. It really sucks being made to feel like the Ugly Red Headed Step Child simply because our cars aren't from Japan or Europe

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:15 pm

bottom line, there is no money in it for aftermarket people - why? They know that Neon people would not pay the hundreds of dollars it would cost us to do just that... I hate to say it, but the truth is that 90% of the people who buy a neon bought it with the intention of having a small compact grocery getter car that gets decent gas milage and that pick up on the highway when needed. The other 10% is the ones complaining about tuning and what not when they wouldnt drop a grand on factory reflash let alone 500 on a standalone system.

I am going megasquirt for the future plain and simple - because I already have a fun to drive 140+ whp neon and I would like to see the brighter side fo 150 - this car is FUN to drive, and that is all I want. Once I graduate and get a job, I will have my 300 HP, AWD Japanese terror. Already had a 300 HP SB Chevy, now time to make that power with half the engine.

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:22 pm

The dealer can't tweak the computer though. Mopar released computers for the 95-99 years, but not 00-02. And they realized they were gonna end production soon. 03-05 is harder to crack into than the previous ones. Infact, Howell just uses the Mopar computer maps in his 00-02 computers. He had someone that worked for mopar themselves tweak his design a little.

If you want to go fast N/A in a neon, with bolt ons, you need to get either a 1gn or a 2gn from 00-02, and try to get an AFX computer that works.

Myself? I've stopped modding my 05. I bought a 1gn, I've got a 98 coupe right now, same engine and transmission combo as my 05. It feels faster already, and it only has a CAI.

Adionik · Post by **Adionik** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:07 pm

I modded my neon, spent around $700ish.

I had fun doing it, learned a lot.

Car is slow as BALLS, these cars were not meant for performance.

CAI/LTH/K&N/60MMTB/ETC

TN.Frank · Post by **TN.Frank** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:30 pm

I think 1.5 HP/ Cubic Inch isn't too much to ask from a modern F.I. engine. Stock it's already making over 130 HP so another 50 HP with the right head/cam and other add ons should make it totally doable. Ok, so I KNOW I'll need to go MS if I want to tweak my fuel/timing(and I do) and I know that I'll probably throw a code even with MS installed. That doesn't bother me a bit, I can just ignore the CEL. What I really don't like it this so called "Limp Mode" that the NGC system can put the car into. Is there anyway to disable it so that no matter what it'll not go into "Limp Mode"?

Adionik · Post by **Adionik** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:33 pm

You're gonna spend $5,000 in mods to get beat by an SRT that cost half the price

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:49 pm

TN.Frank wrote:I think 1.5 HP/ Cubic Inch isn't too much to ask from a modern F.I. engine. Stock it's already making over 130 HP so another 50 HP with the right head/cam and other add ons should make it totally doable. Ok, so I KNOW I'll need to go MS if I want to tweak my fuel/timing(and I do) and I know that I'll probably throw a code even with MS installed. That doesn't bother me a bit, I can just ignore the CEL. What I really don't like it this so called "Limp Mode" that the NGC system can put the car into. Is there anyway to disable it so that no matter what it'll not go into "Limp Mode"?

Yep. Put in a megasquirt, and then you won't care what the stock ECU is doing.

TN.Frank · Post by **TN.Frank** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:05 pm

I wonder if I should do the MegaSqurit before I do the LSD/3.94 gears and clutch/flywheel? That way I can tweak what I've got so that the LSD and gears will really help out a lot. Yep, maybe I should do the MS first before anything else.

soul_sword34 · Post by **soul_sword34** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:08 pm

Adionik wrote:I modded my neon, spent around $700ish.

I had fun doing it, learned a lot.

Car is slow as BALLS, these cars were not meant for performance.

CAI/LTH/K&N/60MMTB/ETC

Correction. These cars were "originally" meant for performance. NYG, R/T, ACR's. Mopar just dropped the ball on that one after they succeeded in pissing off the Japanese in the SCCA.

Adionik wrote:You're gonna spend $5,000 in mods to get beat by an SRT that cost half the price

5K in mods will smoke a stock SRT anyday of the week. With that cash your looking at 12 second ET's easily and cheaper than an SRT.

Adionik · Post by **Adionik** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:16 pm

soul_sword34 wrote:
Adionik wrote:I modded my neon, spent around $700ish.

I had fun doing it, learned a lot.

Car is slow as BALLS, these cars were not meant for performance.

CAI/LTH/K&N/60MMTB/ETC
Correction. These cars were "originally" meant for performance. NYG, R/T, ACR's. Mopar just dropped the ball on that one after they succeeded in pissing off the Japanese in the SCCA.
Adionik wrote:You're gonna spend $5,000 in mods to get beat by an SRT that cost half the price
5K in mods will smoke a stock SRT anyday of the week. With that cash your looking at 12 second ET's easily and cheaper than an SRT.

Oh yeah I forgot how amazingly fast R/T's and ACR's are.

5k naturally aspirated on a neon?.

soul_sword34 · Post by **soul_sword34** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:41 pm

Adionik wrote:
soul_sword34 wrote:
Adionik wrote:I modded my neon, spent around $700ish.

I had fun doing it, learned a lot.

Car is slow as BALLS, these cars were not meant for performance.

CAI/LTH/K&N/60MMTB/ETC
Correction. These cars were "originally" meant for performance. NYG, R/T, ACR's. Mopar just dropped the ball on that one after they succeeded in pissing off the Japanese in the SCCA.
Adionik wrote:You're gonna spend $5,000 in mods to get beat by an SRT that cost half the price
5K in mods will smoke a stock SRT anyday of the week. With that cash your looking at 12 second ET's easily and cheaper than an SRT.
Oh yeah I forgot how amazingly fast R/T's and ACR's are.

5k naturally aspirated on a neon?.

You just said these cars were not "meant" for performance. And I just stated that they "originally" were designed to outperform everything in it's class. Hence for performance. $5,000 will easily net you 300+ whp on a cheap ass $1,000-$5,000 car.

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:27 pm

true, 5k will get you an srt4 swap

300whp on 5k N/A is NEVER going to happen on the stock 2.0L, sorry - that is incorrect.

Yes, the ACR did out-perform everything in its class, which is why they changed the neons class.