Turbocharged & Supercharged???

Project00 · Post by **Project00** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:30 am

Hey there every1,
Just a thought...
I've seen this done in a couple of imports already. A Scion TC and an Acura Integra, both turbo & supercharged.
Anyways I was wondering would that be possible in a neon/srt4?
It sounds crazy but yet intresting, cuz wouldn't that give you the best in both worlds? meaning the supercharger for the bottom/low end, then the turbo for the top end.

Mr Josh Zombie · Post by **Mr Josh Zombie** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:20 am

You're kidding.... right

Project00 · Post by **Project00** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:17 am

Opi wrote:You're kidding.... right

Nope...
Seriously, I've seen this in a Integra at a car show, and I seen the Scion TC in a tuner magazine.

snufflucks · Post by **snufflucks** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:07 am

This is the thread you're looking for:

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=304944

I've never seen that on a TC nor an Integra. Those back yard mechanic, k20 guys are about as mod happy as small displacement dodge guys, so I wouldn't put anything past them.

-Devil- · Post by **-Devil-** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:54 am

IIRC the 'hot wheels' honda civic was turbo and supercharged

01NeonR/T · Post by **01NeonR/T** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:14 pm

I was trying to, well still am trying to, do a twincharge setup, picking up the remains of BRR's Supercharger project based off an Eaton M90. An M62 with electric clutch would probably work better though. But with lack of both time and money to do development, and my apparent unwillingness to remove the A/C compressor (I think I figured out a workaround, but we'll see), the design stage is at a halt. There are lots of things I need to get done pertaining to my other car I'm trying to restore. Either way, I am trying to get the Supercharger into the Turbo, with an RPM controlled Bypass and electric clutch that will turn off the Charger when it's not needed. I was also thinking, using a Huge turbo would be great too. But with clearance issues in the back already that might not be feasible.

-Devil- · Post by **-Devil-** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:43 pm

01NeonR/T wrote:I was trying to, well still am trying to, do a twincharge setup, picking up the remains of BRR's Supercharger project based off an Eaton M90. An M62 with electric clutch would probably work better though. But with lack of both time and money to do development, and my apparent unwillingness to remove the A/C compressor (I think I figured out a workaround, but we'll see), the design stage is at a halt. There are lots of things I need to get done pertaining to my other car I'm trying to restore. Either way, I am trying to get the Supercharger into the Turbo, with an RPM controlled Bypass and electric clutch that will turn off the Charger when it's not needed. I was also thinking, using a Huge turbo would be great too. But with clearance issues in the back already that might not be feasible.

been watching mad max eh?

Project00 · Post by **Project00** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:51 am

01NeonR/T wrote:I was trying to, well still am trying to, do a twincharge setup, picking up the remains of BRR's Supercharger project based off an Eaton M90. An M62 with electric clutch would probably work better though. But with lack of both time and money to do development, and my apparent unwillingness to remove the A/C compressor (I think I figured out a workaround, but we'll see), the design stage is at a halt. There are lots of things I need to get done pertaining to my other car I'm trying to restore. Either way, I am trying to get the Supercharger into the Turbo, with an RPM controlled Bypass and electric clutch that will turn off the Charger when it's not needed. I was also thinking, using a Huge turbo would be great too. But with clearance issues in the back already that might not be feasible.

Nice...Keep us informed on how everything goes...This'll be sweet, to see how it turns out

...

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:52 am

-Devil- wrote:
01NeonR/T wrote:I was trying to, well still am trying to, do a twincharge setup, picking up the remains of BRR's Supercharger project based off an Eaton M90. An M62 with electric clutch would probably work better though. But with lack of both time and money to do development, and my apparent unwillingness to remove the A/C compressor (I think I figured out a workaround, but we'll see), the design stage is at a halt. There are lots of things I need to get done pertaining to my other car I'm trying to restore. Either way, I am trying to get the Supercharger into the Turbo, with an RPM controlled Bypass and electric clutch that will turn off the Charger when it's not needed. I was also thinking, using a Huge turbo would be great too. But with clearance issues in the back already that might not be feasible.
been watching mad max eh?

The Mercedes supercharger works with an electric clutch like an ac compressor, even the Crossfire SRT-6 has this style supercharger...

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:53 am

been watching mad max eh?

The Mercedes supercharger works with an electric clutch like an ac compressor, even the Crossfire SRT-6 has this style supercharger...

-Devil- · Post by **-Devil-** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:57 am

thanks for replying twice ... i think i almost got the answer ... care to go for a third time? =)

would make more sense tho having the S/C on all the time ... since it increases the entire powerband ...

01NeonR/T · Post by **01NeonR/T** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:47 pm

I haven't seen Mad Max. Ever. I remember C&D did a feature on a replica car though. A Ford Falcon Interceptor. I just don't watch a lot of movies. Eleanor? Gone in 60 seconds? Never seen it. Starsky and Hutch? Bullitt? Nope.

Increase the entire powerband? As in all the time? I always thought a Supercharger begins to lose efficiency as the RPM's climb ever higher on the motor. The S/C is great for the bottom line instant snap response but begins losing efficiency compared to a Turbo in the top end. Not only that, but the different types of blowers have different efficiency ratings in terms of how much "energy" is used and how much air is "moved". A Roots type (the eaton M90 and M62) compared to a centrifugal is much less efficient at "moving" air. Roots type efficiencies are fine at low boost pressures, but once you get up there, say 12-15 psi, the compressor efficiency drops low enough where it might not be worth it to keep it on. The whole point is the use the Supercharger in the zone where we know it will increase the powerband. Once it starts getting inefficient in moving the air, turn it off and it becomes more like ballast than anything. That's how I looked at it.

jphillips · Post by **jphillips** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:46 pm

From my understanding of twincharged or "twirbo" setups, an Eaton or other Roots type positive displacement blower makes the engine appear as a larger displacement engine to the turbo. The easiest to research example of this kind of forced induction is pre 2007 BMW minis. There's several twirbo kits on the market for it but there's been several piston powered aircraft that used this method also.

All forced induction units have a flowmap that determines the window of peak efficiency. By design, crank driven blowers deliver maximum volumetric efficiencies at much lower rpm's than an exhaust driven one of the same trim. As a result, max boost is delivered at a lower crank rpm than a turbo.... You could create a setup that didn't require clutching the Eaton or a bypass between the two by finding a compressor wheel on the turbo that complimented the flowmap of the blower. I haven't done the math nor really compared any flowmaps side by side for anything applicable yet, but I imagine that something around a 50 trim turbo with a slightly modified A/R ratio would work nicely. I would think that you'd want the two 'chargers to have the peak windows come as close to matching around the same rpm that the cam makes peak power?

In any event, the Eaton would still provide a nice boost down low 'til the turbo spooled and increased charge air density even further. I'm thinking the plumbing would go; intake, turbo, intercooler, BOV, blower, intake.....

Ill have to look at a couple applications more closely, but I'm not even sure that the bov is even necessary. From what I've been reading, a twincharged setup kindof offers a "best of both worlds", but it's primary benefit seems to be the use of a turbo that's suitable for a larger displacement engine than its actually used on.

-Devil- · Post by **-Devil-** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:40 pm

a S/C doesn't loose efficiency ... it is just after a while the turbo ends up putting out more then the S/C does ...

jphillips · Post by **jphillips** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:55 pm

....actually they both lose efficiency - and they're both more efficient at specific impeller rpms depending on their trim. Check out various flowmaps to get an idea of what i mean.

From what I can tell, even a crank driven supercharger spinning at high rpm's waaaay deep into the flowmap where it's efficiency has fallen way off still pumps more cfm's than the engine would pull without it.

dysphagia · Post by **dysphagia** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:57 pm

hellion power systems has done a bit of research into twin charging and they had a little stand at SEMA.

-Devil- · Post by **-Devil-** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:30 pm

jphillips wrote: From what I can tell, even a crank driven supercharger spinning at high rpm's waaaay deep into the flowmap where it's efficiency has fallen way off still pumps more cfm's than the engine would pull without it.

thats what i mean by saying they increase the entire power band ... not just a smaller window like some turbo setup's do ...

so having a S/C for the overall boost in power (with its 'peak' as you put it, being in the lower to mid range) .. and then the turbo for the mid to upper rpm ... when most motors start to trail off ...

i am prob just old school ... yes turbo's sound nice .. and put out nice power when setup right ...

but none of it can replace the feeling of a roots blower sitting on top of a 454 ...

NiteHawk · Post by **NiteHawk** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:52 pm

ahem... if i may intrude here for a moment...

look into the rotrex brand of superchargers. they're compact centrifugal style superchargers that use a traction drive instead of gears. easily capable of 20psi+, and as confirmed my someone in this thread, it flows 2lb per minute of air MORE than a 3147 turbo (basically a 50trim turbo). as we all know, supercharger boost pressure is directly relational to engine rpm..... i did some math of my own and found the rotrex c30-94, on a 2.4l srt motor, will put out about 20psi @ 6000rpm. take that down to 3000, 1500, and 750rpm...you do the math...

even when spinning that fast, its efficiency is still around 75%...thats nothing to laugh about

ok, mardon my intrusion... i'm outta here now, enjoy

jphillips · Post by **jphillips** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:23 pm

the Rotrex is what got me started researching small displacement supercharging a couple months back, and I started a thread about it in like May or something.... There's a kit out there for Toyo Vitz's and Yaris's that make dam good power.

They're great units, but not applicable to a twin charge setup. Centrifugal blowers are identical to turbos, only impeller rpm is tied to crankshaft rpm instead of exhaust pressure. It'd be the same as a lowspeed turbo feeding a highspeed turbo which I guess would work, just not the same as a turbo feeding a positive displacement blower/roots type/whipple type blower....unless you used the Rotrex to feed an Eaton?

...now there's a plumbing and serpentine belt nightmare!

NiteHawk · Post by **NiteHawk** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:39 pm

i was suggesting that instead of a twin charge

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:56 am

thanks for replying twice ... i think i almost got the answer ... care to go for a third time?

My browser F'd up....

Anyways....
Back to the topic....

SurfrmanX · Post by **SurfrmanX** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:47 am

Turbo Charging 4 ever its the best

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:34 pm

Hmm... I say put 2 turbos, a supercharger, nitrous, and a big vacuum cleaner to pull the exhaust out.

And then make it AWD.

Then put solar panels on top to run another drivetrain connected to another set of wheels behind the car like you see on the back of cement trucks.

And a jet engine.

And like 8 wings for lots of downforce.

jphillips · Post by **jphillips** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:40 pm

esteinmaier wrote:Hmm... I say put 2 turbos, a supercharger, nitrous, and a big vacuum cleaner to pull the exhaust out.

And then make it AWD.

Then put solar panels on top to run another drivetrain connected to another set of wheels behind the car like you see on the back of cement trucks.

And a jet engine.

And like 8 wings for lots of downforce.

You forgot to include ninjas!

dodge_girl · Post by **dodge_girl** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:22 pm

esteinmaier wrote:Hmm... I say put 2 turbos, a supercharger, nitrous, and a big vacuum cleaner to pull the exhaust out.

And then make it AWD.

Then put solar panels on top to run another drivetrain connected to another set of wheels behind the car like you see on the back of cement trucks.

And a jet engine.

And like 8 wings for lots of downforce.

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:31 am

You know me I stir shit up...

It urks me how supercharging a 2Gn is like the ultimate joke on here... when in fact it's feasable on engines of similar displacement, and has been done before.

I see some of you spend so much $$$ on show mods and whatnot, if even ONE of you spent that money on a supercharger project, I believe it would not only work, but it would work so well, others would try it.

But whatever, keep laughing at the idea in the meantime.

NiteHawk · Post by **NiteHawk** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:24 am

just throw on 3 rotrex C38-81 superchargers which push close to 78.4lb/min per...that aughta blow somethin up quicker than a kilo of C4, lol

MoxHair · Post by **MoxHair** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:20 am

I think I'm going to go reinvent the wheel

NiteHawk · Post by **NiteHawk** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:11 pm

too late, michelin already half-way did...remember the tweel?

jphillips · Post by **jphillips** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:23 pm

It urks me how supercharging a 2GN is like the ultimate joke on here...

prolly the same way when someone first posted that AutoVentshade was making a decklid spoiler for 2gn's - "that would look like crap" and "just get an srt wing" were probably the rallying cries of the day.

Now everybody wants one.