160 vs. 180 vs. OEM 195 degree thermostats!!????

keeders08 · Post by **keeders08** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:57 pm

Does anyone KNOW if getting a 160 is better for the engine or anything else GOOOD?? I mean i would think it'd run better, maybe better MPG, longer Oil life possibly...? lol i dont know... come on ppl give me some facts, or ATLEAST some opinions!

THANKS!,

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:04 am

Our engines are designed to live at 195-220*F. Today's oil is also made for higher temps. running anything lower than 180*F will prolly do more harm than good. If for example you're having overheating issues, a new radiator, engine flush, check fan operation, or high flow t'stat are better solutions than a lower temp stat. Unless you're running serious power where temp spikes regularly happen a cooler t'stat isn't needed. The oil needs to be at operating temp to properly lubricate. You're fuel mileage will also suffer with a cooler stat as the pcm thinks the engine isn't fully warmed up. Piston slap may be louder also as heat makes metal expand. less heat = less expansion. 180-160 stats are for yesterday's cars as far as DD's

pyro · Post by **pyro** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:29 am

^^^Yup. If you dont get the motor over 170, permanent warm up mode will make your mileage sad, carbon up your motor too IMHO.

keeders08 · Post by **keeders08** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:36 am

dood i shoulda figured that one out on my own! Cause i completely forgot about warmup how the car idles higher and in auto trannys it revs out the gears a lil more...

but then again, it only stays that way til it gets to like not even a quarter of the way up the temp. gauge.... hmmm

TN.Frank · Post by **TN.Frank** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:32 am

I think the whole point of running a cooler 'stat was to keep the car in open loop mode so you'd have more timing and fuel but since I've heard that Neons run kind of rich anyway why would you want MORE fuel. Timing I can see but not at the cost of adding more fuel.

SurfrmanX · Post by **SurfrmanX** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:19 pm

Dont play with the system that colds your engine, you will not obtain any gain in hp, or something like that, you wanna a good cooler system for your car change the water pump, put stainless steel radiator and hoses, but that little think call termostat can mess you car if that open late or early, tha pcm also must be with it

keeders08 · Post by **keeders08** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:29 pm

SurfrmanX wrote:Dont play with the system that colds your engine, you will not obtain any gain in hp, or something like that, you wanna a good cooler system for your car change the water pump, put stainless steel radiator and hoses, but that little think call termostat can mess you car if that open late or early, tha pcm also must be with it

Alright that sounded really professional, not. lol I can't take that message seriously cuz you didnt seem very knowledgable on the subject...

but for the most part im going to take evryone advice, specially the whole open loop mode becuz of the Super AFC ordeal on non VVTI/VTEC cars.

Thanks for your opinion tho, forreal..

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:52 am

As mentioned before, unless you have a potent motor and your engine temps aren't stable there is no need for a cooler stat. I've been running a 180deg stat in my R/T mainly because of the last rally I went on my temps were holding around half on the gauge if not a little more. Running the 180 helped keep my temps down a little bit more to where I would like it, daily driving my temps never hit half gauge, I get 25-30mpg, but when I run the car HARD the temps never go above half now.
A 160 stat may be too much for our motors, but you can run a 180 stat safely since the engine will still hit operating temps while keeping the motor a little cooler...

Post by **racer12306** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:26 am

keeders08 wrote:
SurfrmanX wrote:Dont play with the system that colds your engine, you will not obtain any gain in hp, or something like that, you wanna a good cooler system for your car change the water pump, put stainless steel radiator and hoses, but that little think call termostat can mess you car if that open late or early, tha pcm also must be with it
Alright that sounded really professional, not. lol I can't take that message seriously cuz you didnt seem very knowledgable on the subject...

but for the most part im going to take evryone advice, specially the whole open loop mode becuz of the Super AFC ordeal on non VVTI/VTEC cars.

Thanks for your opinion tho, forreal..

Cut the guy a little slack. It's obvious English is not his first language. I'm guessing he is from Mexico since his location says MX.

keeders08 · Post by **keeders08** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:38 pm

racer12306 wrote:
keeders08 wrote:
SurfrmanX wrote:Dont play with the system that colds your engine, you will not obtain any gain in hp, or something like that, you wanna a good cooler system for your car change the water pump, put stainless steel radiator and hoses, but that little think call termostat can mess you car if that open late or early, tha pcm also must be with it
Alright that sounded really professional, not. lol I can't take that message seriously cuz you didnt seem very knowledgable on the subject...

but for the most part im going to take evryone advice, specially the whole open loop mode becuz of the Super AFC ordeal on non VVTI/VTEC cars.

Thanks for your opinion tho, forreal..
Cut the guy a little slack. It's obvious English is not his first language. I'm guessing he is from Mexico since his location says MX.

honestly my ignorance kept me from noticing hes from MX. lol

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:19 pm

I run 180 deg.F. thermostats, BUT ONLY IN THE SUMMER.
I've had no ill effects.

On the HOTTEST summer days during August, I have tried running a 160 deg.F thermostat.
I can't say that it made any improvement in power or gas mileage, unfortunately.

You DON'T want to run a 180, let alone a 160, thermostat in winter.
Your power may go up, but your gas mileage will go straight to flipping Hell. (spoken from experience)
It is definitely not good for your engine or your oiling system, for long-term use.

Generally, I switch back to the stock 195 deg.F thermostat in autumn and run it that way until the next summer.

-Nick

keeders08 · Post by **keeders08** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:22 pm

NickKo wrote:I run 180 deg.F. thermostats, BUT ONLY IN THE SUMMER.
I've had no ill effects.

On the HOTTEST summer days during August, I have tried running a 160 deg.F thermostat.
I can't say that it made any improvement in power or gas mileage, unfortunately.

You DON'T want to run a 180, let alone a 160, thermostat in winter.
Your power may go up, but your gas mileage will go straight to flipping Hell. (spoken from experience)
It is definitely not good for your engine or your oiling system, for long-term use.

Generally, I switch back to the stock 195 deg.F thermostat in autumn and run it that way until the next summer.

-Nick

I would suspsect that theres no way to have the engine run colder and trick the puter to beleive its not REALLY that cool...?

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:57 pm

keeders08 wrote:I would suspsect that theres no way to have the engine run colder and trick the puter to beleive its not REALLY that cool...?

Basically no.... But I don't think it's the PCM, really.
I don't think that the "colder" thermostats do squat to lower the air intake temperature going into the throttle body from under the hood.

Now, if you can get cooler air going into the throttle body, that will help make much more of a difference. ('CAI').

-Nick

keeders08 · Post by **keeders08** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:45 am

NickKo wrote:
keeders08 wrote:I would suspsect that theres no way to have the engine run colder and trick the puter to beleive its not REALLY that cool...?
Basically no.... But I don't think it's the PCM, really.
I don't think that the "colder" thermostats do squat to lower the air intake temperature going into the throttle body from under the hood.

Now, if you can get cooler air going into the throttle body, that will help make much more of a difference. ('CAI').

-Nick

no no, i meant so that it wont stay in open loop mode, or cause alot of carbon build up dood. I dont care about intake temp. honestly, even tha that'd be sweet. Mainly what i want cooler for is because supposedly it'd be better for ur engine life....

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:06 pm

keeders08 wrote:no no, i meant so that it wont stay in open loop mode, or cause alot of carbon build up dood. I dont care about intake temp. honestly, even tha that'd be sweet. Mainly what i want cooler for is because supposedly it'd be better for ur engine life....

Aha, I see. Thank you for clarifying this.

Actually, on TODAY'S engines, "colder" thermostats can SHORTEN engine life !!
It's not like in the 70's and early 80's, when engines ran too hot sometimes for their own good.
The colder thermostat will delay warm up.....more condensation (water) will build up in the engine oil ..... decrease engine efficiency and gas mileage.
Eventually, if you run with a 'colder' thermostat long enough and it starts getting colder with the change of seasons, you PCM will figure it out and throw a code (or so I have read).

This is why I run the 180 deg.F thermostat only in the summer, and I have never had such a problem.

I should tell you a story. I actually tried running a 180 deg.F thermostat in one of my Neons in December !
This was not intentional; I just didn't get around to changing it before there was a REAL bad cold snap that year.
Temps had dropped into the 10-20 deg.F range.

This was on an ATX with a warm air (Kirk) intake.
Result: due to the cold temps under the hood, the engine made great power !!

The BAD news was, that my gas mileage went Straight to Hell. Try only 16-18MPG.

May as well go back to driving V-8's.
I started noticing the effects of condensation in my engine oil.... there was some 'foamy' buildup under the oil filler cap (I could imagine what my valve cover looked like underneath.)
I knew that this was not good for the engine, so I changed the thermostat back to 195 deg.F, as soon as I had a chance.

-Nick

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:06 am

I ran with no thermostat in my 98 for a while, well, it was just broken and stayed open. I never topped 27 MPG, and that was with me granny driving it. It was COLD AS SHIT too. I could literally smell the gas coming out of the tailpipe, it was terrible.

OB · Post by OB » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:16 am

TN.Frank wrote:I think the whole point of running a cooler 'stat was to keep the car in open loop mode so you'd have more timing and fuel but since I've heard that Neons run kind of rich anyway why would you want MORE fuel. Timing I can see but not at the cost of adding more fuel.

The PCM automatically switches to OL upon WOT accel anyways, making any other attempt to do so pointless. Why would any enthusiast want OL operation earlier than that? Also, spark timing is decreased during OL, in attempt to prevent detonation. Fuel is typically added, for the same reason. Open loop is only good if the maps are custom tuned; the OEM OL programming is anything but performance oriented.

Regarding the original topic - The thermal characteristics of the engine are engineered from the factory to produce the best performance. Unless your motor is highly tuned and no longer under factory PCM control, changing the operating temp will only hurt performance and fuel mileage.