Pre-turbo installation

untamed · Post by **untamed** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:06 pm

I have a 2000 es. I am soon to be purchasing a turbo kit (either new or from someone on .org) I was wondering what could I install now in preparation for the turbo? it may be a couple of weeks out before I am able to get everything. What shoud / could I install?

Also, I live in atlanta, and we have emission... is there any fuel manangement or pcm that i could use without CEL? or at what point will i not be able to upgrade any further. I have the money to upgrade pretty far with the installation, but i don't want to get more that I will be able to.

and I would do a swap, but for my year I see there is a lot of extra bs.

NeonOn19s · Post by **NeonOn19s** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:28 pm

there are how 2s on the forum for intallation and what you will need...

untamed · Post by **untamed** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:37 pm

its not really a matter of how to install... it is what to or can i install

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:48 pm

Do a search in this thread, there is loads of info in sticky's at the top and what not. Some of your questions can answered that way - I would answer, but I do not know

Also, you need to change the size of your Avatar, its too big.

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:37 pm

there really isn't anything that can be "pre -nstalled." I guess you could put the inter cooler on but you would get made fun of pretty hard having in IC mounted with no turbo. really there isn't that much that can be done. its pretty much an all at once deal.

as far as emissions, good luck. with the map clamp from say hahn with an RRfpr you will get the too rich code every time you pass gas near the car. i guess going back to stock injectors and STAYING OUT OFF BOOST for a few miles let me repeat that STAYING OUT OF BOOST. enough for the computer to record some parameters before the inspection might be okay. OBD2 is a pain in the ass to fool.

an idea i have been running about, and i have to say i didn't think of it first, using megasquirt and tuning for emissions, then hook up the stock coil, and injectors in a hidden place, then still having the 02 sensors hooked up getting readings. then clamping the voltages on them below the thresh hold of throwing the too rich code.

Its a lot of work, but other than uninstalling everything come inspection time, there really isn't a way to fool the inspection computer (assuming you can pass the visual for the turbo)

good luck and if you do go this route before i do please share your experience! could be worth millions to us with turbo kits and annual inspections!

Peace
J

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:39 pm

Jamie wrote:there really isn't anything that can be "pre -nstalled." I guess you could put the inter cooler on but you would get made fun of pretty hard having in IC mounted with no turbo. really there isn't that much that can be done. its pretty much an all at once deal.

as far as emissions, good luck. with the map clamp from say hahn with an RRfpr you will get the too rich code every time you pass gas near the car. i guess going back to stock injectors and STAYING OUT OFF BOOST for a few miles let me repeat that STAYING OUT OF BOOST. enough for the computer to record some parameters before the inspection might be okay. OBD2 is a pain in the ass to fool.

an idea i have been running about, and i have to say i didn't think of it first, using megasquirt and tuning for emissions, then hook up the stock coil, and injectors in a hidden place, then still having the 02 sensors hooked up getting readings. then clamping the voltages on them below the thresh hold of throwing the too rich code.

Its a lot of work, but other than uninstalling everything come inspection time, there really isn't a way to fool the inspection computer (assuming you can pass the visual for the turbo)

good luck and if you do go this route before i do please share your experience! could be worth millions to us with turbo kits and annual inspections!

Peace
J

Problem with that is that narrowband sensors oscillate 0/1v, whereas wideband sensors are 0-5v. Can't clamp voltage if the computer cares about how often it's on or off, not what voltage is coming out of it.

untamed · Post by **untamed** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:43 pm

well, i guess one good thing is that atlanta doesn't do visual inspections. I am assuming there is a way.... i guess i should ask some of these people running around with twin turbo'd supras.

so even with the portfueler i will still code?

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:10 pm

Twin turbo supras are easy. They already are equipped to handle >1BAR MAP. A 2k neon can stay code free if it's tuned right on a RRFPR. They are pretty forgiving under boost, as long as you only boost with your foot to the floor. The problem lies in part throttle boosting, when the ECU is trimming fuel in closed loop.

Kevin_GP · Post by **Kevin_GP** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:29 pm

esteinmaier wrote:Twin turbo supras are easy. They already are equipped to handle >1BAR MAP. A 2k neon can stay code free if it's tuned right on a RRFPR. They are pretty forgiving under boost, as long as you only boost with your foot to the floor. The problem lies in part throttle boosting, when the ECU is trimming fuel in closed loop.

quoted for truth, you can get a RRFPR to run your car perfect, except for part throttle boost which you do not want to do. HOWEVER you can tun your RRFPR to deal with some of the harshness of part throttle boost. The answer is to not run a check valve and set your static pressure pretty high (like 40-50 psi) and use vacuum to pull fuel psi out side of boost. That way when you get to atmospheric pressure, you are forcing a ton of fuel past the fuel trims to help in that transition.

MS is a better solution though.

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:28 pm

Kevin_GP wrote:
esteinmaier wrote:Twin turbo supras are easy. They already are equipped to handle >1BAR MAP. A 2k neon can stay code free if it's tuned right on a RRFPR. They are pretty forgiving under boost, as long as you only boost with your foot to the floor. The problem lies in part throttle boosting, when the ECU is trimming fuel in closed loop.
quoted for truth, you can get a RRFPR to run your car perfect, except for part throttle boost which you do not want to do. HOWEVER you can tun your RRFPR to deal with some of the harshness of part throttle boost. The answer is to not run a check valve and set your static pressure pretty high (like 40-50 psi) and use vacuum to pull fuel psi out side of boost. That way when you get to atmospheric pressure, you are forcing a ton of fuel past the fuel trims to help in that transition.

MS is a better solution though.

Not really. Then you skew the entire fuel map up to the point that the MAP clamp is set at.

The problem comes from the ECU trying to trim out fuel unless the TPS is indicating 100% throttle. Nothing you can do to change that. Anytime you are in boost, you are in a tuning range that the stock ECU doesn't know how to account for, so if you are at 4psi during part throttle boost, and the ECU is seeing 0 MAP, and the A/F ratio is 11.5:1, the computer will attempt to lean it out until it reaches the edge of the trim range, and then sets the code. You can fight with it all day long trying to make it richer, and it will trim it all out, unless you are in open loop, where the ECU is ignoring fuel trims. That make sense?

Kevin_GP · Post by **Kevin_GP** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:39 pm

esteinmaier wrote:
Kevin_GP wrote:
esteinmaier wrote:Twin turbo supras are easy. They already are equipped to handle >1BAR MAP. A 2k neon can stay code free if it's tuned right on a RRFPR. They are pretty forgiving under boost, as long as you only boost with your foot to the floor. The problem lies in part throttle boosting, when the ECU is trimming fuel in closed loop.
quoted for truth, you can get a RRFPR to run your car perfect, except for part throttle boost which you do not want to do. HOWEVER you can tun your RRFPR to deal with some of the harshness of part throttle boost. The answer is to not run a check valve and set your static pressure pretty high (like 40-50 psi) and use vacuum to pull fuel psi out side of boost. That way when you get to atmospheric pressure, you are forcing a ton of fuel past the fuel trims to help in that transition.

MS is a better solution though.
Not really. Then you skew the entire fuel map up to the point that the MAP clamp is set at.

The problem comes from the ECU trying to trim out fuel unless the TPS is indicating 100% throttle. Nothing you can do to change that. Anytime you are in boost, you are in a tuning range that the stock ECU doesn't know how to account for, so if you are at 4psi during part throttle boost, and the ECU is seeing 0 MAP, and the A/F ratio is 11.5:1, the computer will attempt to lean it out until it reaches the edge of the trim range, and then sets the code. You can fight with it all day long trying to make it richer, and it will trim it all out, unless you are in open loop, where the ECU is ignoring fuel trims. That make sense?

Makes sense, thing is I did counter act it. Running a check valve and setting my static pressure based on my injectors made part throttle boost awful. This is what everyone suggested and it sucked. Running a check valve, adjusting a higher static, and using the right rate of gain worked much better. Not full control, but better than an on/off switch. Again this is with a 02, and I never tripped a code (other than for no cat and udp). Its not as bad as you think.

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:00 pm

Yea, makes sense. I'm up on the .05-1v swing of the narrow bands. what i was considering was that if i could clamp both the up and down streams at say .7v or a voltage that would not throw the code, leave them in the exhaust stream so the computer sees the fluctuation and doesnt throw a no activity code, it just might work.

my reasoning on this, if I'm understanding the stock PCM correctly, is that if I have the stock injectors, as well as the stock coil still plugged in, and in a alternate location, that would take care of those two code issues. then with both O2 sensors clamped so the max they could put out would be an acceptable number that the computer would expect may possibly be enough to buy some acceptable drive time before the inspection to get some driving history stored in the pcm with out a code.

Plus with obd2 when it starts to do a run down on the sensors it will see activity on both sensors but not too rich. It will see a stoich mix because the MS will be tuned for emissions. Of course this is all assuming that you are using MS or a similar EMS with a wideband as your primary AFR information along with a good tune. Im thinking the other important thing would be to drive it like grandma and keep it out of WOT. basically a situation where the TPS and the expected MAP are out of whack and throw a code for that.

I dont see this as a permanent solution for a DD with no check engine light but i think it could be a tempo deal for a person dealing with inspections. a few days before the inspection he erases the codes and CEL, then drives it like grandma for 2 or 3 days and take it in to the machine.

It also could turn into a wiring nightmare if attempted but i still have both of my old o2 sensors in a tool box somewhere, lol. I may give it a try here in the coming weeks just to see what happens.

Peace
J

edit

Problem with that is that narrowband sensors oscillate 0/1v, whereas wideband sensors are 0-5v. Can't clamp voltage if the computer cares about how often it's on or off, not what voltage is coming out of it.

i just re read that and caught what you were saying. yes this is true... and the hassle of trying to engineer some kind of 02 stimulator that could read the PCM's mind and tell it what it wants to hear would almost make it not worth it.

O well, it was a good idea when it started...
J

untamed · Post by **untamed** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:37 pm

so basically i couldn't get the car tuned for just emission purposes, and then tune it later as a DD

I could have sworn that when i talked to the guys at hahn, he said that their kit would pass emissions... i guess you will say anything to get $$$.

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:59 am

It's possible to pass emissions with either a portfueler or RRFPR. You just have to drive it differently in order to not get codes.

untamed · Post by **untamed** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:27 am

Well, I guess I am going to try it... I will tell you all how it works out... but we all know money can make everything legal sometimes.

Kevin_GP · Post by **Kevin_GP** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:57 pm

I never got codes related to my turbo when I was on stock computer, only from no cat and my udp. You will be fine, just make sure you are running stoich (you will be if you have the stock computer) when you go to emissions and you will be fine.

NeonzKing · Post by **NeonzKing** » Fri May 16, 2008 3:52 pm

im using a rrfpr and a return line stock ecu and no codes or lights on running 8lbs for right now so it can be done also no smoke from anything either

untamed · Post by **untamed** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:14 pm

really?? can you list your setup.

lambostealth · Post by **lambostealth** » Fri May 16, 2008 4:31 pm

I have no codes with portfueler........I did, but it was because my mapclamp was set wrong......now, no codes.

southga00 · Post by **southga00** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:42 pm

why not go spend the $140 on and obd 11 reader and erase the codes when u pull in the parking lot or up the street and just stay off throttle till u get their. I have the obd II reader and it comes in handy a lot anyways.

LionheartedSXT · Post by **LionheartedSXT** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:39 pm

back all the way to the top where this convo started, the only thing I could think of "pre-installing" is some upgraded brakes, like drilled or slotted to handle the extra power, then again upgrade them depending on how much power you plan on having after the turbo is on...if it is like a 100 or more HP after the turbo, then yea get the brakes...

Wenuden · Post by **Wenuden** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:46 pm

southga00 wrote:why not go spend the $140 on and obd 11 reader and erase the codes when u pull in the parking lot or up the street and just stay off throttle till u get their. I have the obd II reader and it comes in handy a lot anyways.

Because emissions computers won't perform a test if codes have been recently cleared. A "not ready to test" message, or something along those lines, will pop up. If you could think of that, don't you think the state thought of it already? Once you clear codes, you have to run the car thru all different types of driving before its ready for an emissions test.

Also, this thread is from February.