pioneer subs

w0158981 · Post by **w0158981** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:12 pm

Hey just wondering if anyones run a pioneer sub? i'm debating between

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio ... ctID=17682

or

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio ... ctID=17387

or just running a infinity kappa.

The kappa is more expensive so i'm just wondering if either of the pioneer subs will pound like the kappa?

jT · Post by jT » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:15 am

man how many times do you have to hear it? since you are basically basement bargain shopping for an audio system it doesnt really matter all that much what you get because it will all sound the same, for the most part. of course that means stay away from off brands but any brand name company under $100 will for the most part sound the same and will be just fine

you wont go wrong with one of those pioneer subs. you wont go wrong with the infinity sub. you wont go wrong with an mtx sub.

i wish i could make a recording of my 150Wx1@4ohm MTX amp/sub combo that would actually let you hear what it sounds like.. but a recording would not be accurate in any way.

i did not compare the 'features' of those two pioneer subs but the specs are the same for each of them. so if some set of features sounds better to you over the other one, pick it. or just get the cheapest (i didnt even look at the prices).

of course these are only my opinions and i understand that you want the best for the price you want to pay, but you need to just pick something and either live with it or try something else.

i tried looking at walmart canada's website but they didnt list any speakers or subwoofers.. if you have a walmart and they have subwoofers try them all. or at least thats what i would say if you were in the US.. i dont know about canada but here walmart will basically take back anything at anytime.. so you could try them all out.. my local walmart has pioneer, sony, and some off brands like lightning audio and i dont know what else.. i could take them all out for a test drive and return them if i wanted to.

if you got any stores that will easily accept returns just go nuts testing things. pay cash so they dont keep track of your name

------------

i would actually try any of these also if i really wanted to crunch on spending money

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio ... 7651,13519

they all look good

Themaggots · Post by **Themaggots** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:44 am

If you are ordering from onlinecarstereo.com , be sure to send an e-mail to ask if the product is in stock or not. If it isn't, your order will be on hold and it could take a while before you receive anything.

w0158981 · Post by **w0158981** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:13 am

i'm not extremely tight for money it juss seems that from what i have found these subs are kinda what i want. I'm only curious if anyone has herd a pioneer sub compared to the kappa and if it pounds as hard? i've only herd the kappa not the pioneer so i was just curious.

w0158981 · Post by **w0158981** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:25 am

this is a little off topic but how do i know a sub is blown? i juss took out the sub i bought used out of the box. The guy told me it was blown but the magnets still attached and strong. the only thing that i noticed was the wiring didn't look to great and were not wrapped. So i'm just wondering what would happen if the positive and negative touched? or could it just be the wiring not being tight enough? i have no clue how to tell if a sub is blown but i'm curious to see if i snagged a free sub in this deal.

jT · Post by jT » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:36 am

if it doesnt work then its blown. simple as that.

a blown sub does not mean exploded with dynamite and the magnet detached... of course its still attached.. until you physically rip it apart.

its possible that there is a loose connection, but youd have to hook it up and play with the connections... and even then trying to repair the connection may not be feasible.

jetas · Post by **jetas** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:07 pm

Ive checked mine by just pushind down on the cone slightly. If you hear it scrape dont use it. Unless u dont really care and jus run it for a while til it gives out.

w0158981 · Post by **w0158981** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:35 pm

i've pushed in the middle and i hear nothing but for some reasonthesub just won't work. i'm going to re do the wiring and then give it another shot.

if it does not work i think i'm going to run a infinity reference sub (any comments) just because that way my amp will slightly over power it and its only 60$ new on ebay.

jetas · Post by **jetas** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:03 pm

If you hooked yup the amp correctly there is no need to rewire.... And if the sub dont work then it just dont work. buy another sub and get on with it

Jeremy M · Post by **Jeremy M** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:11 pm

....dont' hook it up, u need a DMM (digital multi meter), u can mess your amp up....

pushing down on the sub only tells u if the coils are rubbing/scratching....

chances are the VC's are frozen...does the sub move up and down? if it does then look at the tinsels to see if they're still attached.

Craz1000 · Post by **Craz1000** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:12 am

the only way to tell is hooking up the DMM and seeing if the resistance is what its supposed to be, or if you even get a rating

subs can blow many ways and pushing down isnt a 100% way because i can make a brand new sub sound blown by pushing it down, if you push it the wrong way it will ALWAYS make a scraping sound. ive done it many times to up-sell a sub.

you can have a frozen (siezed) coil, this is an indication that the box is too small or you put WAY too much power to the sub.. what happens is the coil heats up the wrapper and melts though it and wedges itself inside or just outside the magnet's track.

lose coil, usually this is from a cheap low quality sub that is advertised to handle more than what it really can because the company knows the majority of people dont know any better and only care about the wattage rating... sony, jensen, dual, and all the other cheap crap brands do this. so you put more power and it basically shakes the coil loos because of crappy design

damaged surround, this is byfar the most common... this is usually from age and will happen in every subs life if the coil dosent go first. HOWEVER some surrounds are crappier than others again buy quality and itll last you longer.

basically man what everyone has been trying to tell you is if you want a good quality sub, dont spend less that 200 a sub. you dont have to ask arround if anyone has "HEARD" a sub to know if its bumps just look at the specs. a GOOD sub has these charactoristics.

RMS Wattage... usually 500-1000w RMS (unless its a comp sub then it can go way up there)
High sensitivity
coil width
magnet weight
high liniar exursion or x-max
a strong cone
nice thick well designed surround/suspention
DVC sometimes even QVC or OVC
the higher end subs will actually have baskets made of a non-magnetic material like hard plastic or aluminum powder like the focal's

wattage is not a sign of quality, usually because a sub with high sensitivity will have a low wattage rating but will be louder than another sub that has twice the wattage rating sometimes even triple. for example if you feed 2 subs with 300w RMS and one has a sensitivity of 86db and one is 89db the 89db sub will be twice as loud as the 86db. now heres a big tip, if a sub manufactorer wont give you those basic specs its a shit sub period; because people wo make quality subs know that most of thier sales are going to be to people who know and they are gonna display every spec needed to determine if the sub is perfect.

selecting subs and amps is a science and if everyone took the time to read and learn the design and workings of a sub and what the specs mean then there wouldnt be so much garbage flooding the market today.

jetas · Post by **jetas** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:56 pm

Thats the best explanation ive ever read/heard.

w0158981 · Post by **w0158981** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:08 pm

ok i'll go with that for sure my last question is on the DVC is it a must for good subs? i was looking at the reference and its only got a single voice coil i'm not sure really what kind of huge difference it makes but if it is significant i may go with the kappa or a kicker perhaps.

Craz1000 · Post by **Craz1000** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:25 pm

DVC's to me produce a crisper sound since i think because the cone is moving quicker so its able to reprodice the wave better.

the downside is that its harder to perfectly match an amp to it

glasjaw · Post by **glasjaw** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:26 pm

it just gives you more wiring options...if you have a 4ohm SVC woofer you can only wire to 4ohms. If you have a dual 4ohm you can wire to 2 or 8. Or dual 2ohm you can wire to 1 or 4.

cgneon · Post by **cgneon** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:59 am

ive got a single pioneer 10inch DVC 4ohm sub in a sealed box, love it.. i think it was 350 watt rms, and matched it with a 375 rms pioneer amp.. hits harder than i need it too, bass never gets above -0- setting. if you get a dvc 4ohm, you have to get an amp that is 2ohm stable.. or to leave it as 4 you can just wire each coil to its own channel on a 2 channel amp

Craz1000 · Post by **Craz1000** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:28 am

glasjaw wrote:it just gives you more wiring options...if you have a 4ohm SVC woofer you can only wire to 4ohms. If you have a dual 4ohm you can wire to 2 or 8. Or dual 2ohm you can wire to 1 or 4.

right but you now have 2 coils pushing and pulling on the cone, thats gotta affect the speed/accuracy of the cone somewhat

cgneon · Post by **cgneon** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:10 pm

im no way an audio and spec junkie, but iirc way back from everything ive read when looking into DVC it should make it run more efficient working together with the 2 coils inline... as opposed to 2 seperate subs "supposedly" but i couldnt begin to tell you where i read that...

w0158981 · Post by **w0158981** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:13 pm

so for all you audio guys help me wire this please.

i have:
a 2 channel amp each channel is 2 ohms and it can be bridged to 4 ohm

a infinity 1252w 12" sub. dual 4 ohm voice coil

so how do i wire my amp so that its 4 ohms and on both voice coils?

Themaggots · Post by **Themaggots** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:42 am

Give the amp model. I don't quite understand the specs.

jT · Post by jT » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:36 am

i'm not positive but i dont think your amp specs make any sense.. i dont think you can bridge 2ohm and make it 4ohm -- that would be, like, 1ohm or something... (and i have not looked at many amplifiers but i dont recall ever seeing a 2 channel amp that is 2ohms on each channel to start with, its always 4ohm--from what ive seen), its the other way around, you bridge 2 4ohm channels into 1x2ohm..

but someone with more knowledge would have to chime in and correct if needed

anyways. i think this is the way youd want to wire them

w0158981 · Post by **w0158981** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:45 am

now do i connect the negatives to each other?
simply all i want to do is bridge the amp and connect it to both voice coils

cgneon · Post by **cgneon** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:05 am

then do just like the diagram above shows.. the positive from one channel on the amp to the pos on one coil to the pos on the other coil.,,, then the negative from the OTHER channel on the amp (not the same channel as the pos your using) to the neg on the coil to the neg on the other coil.. will give you bridged amp 2ohm load on your SUB..

if your thinking of connecting each channel to each coil that is not bridging.. its basically like having 2 4ohm seperate subs..

Craz1000 · Post by **Craz1000** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:48 pm

w0158981 wrote:so for all you audio guys help me wire this please.

i have:
a 2 channel amp each channel is 2 ohms and it can be bridged to 4 ohm

a infinity 1252w 12" sub. dual 4 ohm voice coil

so how do i wire my amp so that its 4 ohms and on both voice coils?

his amp makes perfect sence.

every 2-channel ive seen can only run 4ohms bridge and bottom out 2ohms at each channel.

simple you cant wire a dual 4ohm sub bridged on a 2ch... the best you can do is put each coil on its own channel. i would return that sub man if i were you, or get a mono-block

sxt03 · Post by **sxt03** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:11 pm

Craz1000 wrote: the only way to tell is hooking up the DMM and seeing if the resistance is what its supposed to be, or if you even get a rating

subs can blow many ways and pushing down isnt a 100% way because i can make a brand new sub sound blown by pushing it down, if you push it the wrong way it will ALWAYS make a scraping sound. ive done it many times to up-sell a sub.

you can have a frozen (siezed) coil, this is an indication that the box is too small or you put WAY too much power to the sub.. what happens is the coil heats up the wrapper and melts though it and wedges itself inside or just outside the magnet's track.

lose coil, usually this is from a cheap low quality sub that is advertised to handle more than what it really can because the company knows the majority of people dont know any better and only care about the wattage rating... sony, jensen, dual, and all the other cheap crap brands do this. so you put more power and it basically shakes the coil loos because of crappy design

damaged surround, this is byfar the most common... this is usually from age and will happen in every subs life if the coil dosent go first. HOWEVER some surrounds are crappier than others again buy quality and itll last you longer.

basically man what everyone has been trying to tell you is if you want a good quality sub, dont spend less that 200 a sub. you dont have to ask arround if anyone has "HEARD" a sub to know if its bumps just look at the specs. a GOOD sub has these charactoristics.

RMS Wattage... usually 500-1000w RMS (unless its a comp sub then it can go way up there)
High sensitivity
coil width
magnet weight
high liniar exursion or x-max
a strong cone
nice thick well designed surround/suspention
DVC sometimes even QVC or OVC
the higher end subs will actually have baskets made of a non-magnetic material like hard plastic or aluminum powder like the focal's

wattage is not a sign of quality, usually because a sub with high sensitivity will have a low wattage rating but will be louder than another sub that has twice the wattage rating sometimes even triple. for example if you feed 2 subs with 300w RMS and one has a sensitivity of 86db and one is 89db the 89db sub will be twice as loud as the 86db. now heres a big tip, if a sub manufactorer wont give you those basic specs its a shit sub period; because people wo make quality subs know that most of thier sales are going to be to people who know and they are gonna display every spec needed to determine if the sub is perfect.

selecting subs and amps is a science and if everyone took the time to read and learn the design and workings of a sub and what the specs mean then there wouldnt be so much garbage flooding the market today.

Fantastic explanation.

However, there is one thing i do not agree with. The price range of the subs you stated. You said good quality subs are 200$+per sub. You can get a great kicker sub for $140-170$. Right now i have 2 10in kicker cvr subs and i got em for 160$ apiece. They sound great, and they hit the highs and lows very well.

Craz1000 · Post by **Craz1000** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:58 pm

sxt03 wrote: Fantastic explanation.

However, there is one thing i do not agree with. The price range of the subs you stated. You said good quality subs are 200$+per sub. You can get a great kicker sub for $140-170$. Right now i have 2 10in kicker cvr subs and i got em for 160$ apiece. They sound great, and they hit the highs and lows very well.

a good "Q" sub is no less than $200, kicker is an SPL sub, it dosent have to be clear it just has to be loud. if you hear a "Audiophile" quality subwoofer and listen to anything that is an SPL sub youll notice really fast that it sounds muffled

SOHCKing03 · Post by **SOHCKing03** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:33 pm

Seriously guys, you're making me bust out my project?

Began as a 12" DIYMA Reference. I ran 125 watts to it in a .50 cubic foot box (builder's reccomendation). The cone however was not strong enough (a light cone was needed to create the crisp clean sound).

I am now going to be building my own fiberglass or kevlar cone. I am probably going to do fiberglass but if I get bored I will attempt kevlar.

The point is... YOU DON'T NEED HIGH POWER TO BE LOUD OR GOOD. My sub was plenty loud enough and perfectly clean. It has a high sensitivity (93dB) also.

-Brad

p.s. The magnet looks odd because it is a stacked style magnet with neo magnets. It weighs roughly 30.2 lbs

Craz1000 · Post by **Craz1000** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:14 pm

go ported, whats the recomended ported box, .5cu/ft for a 12" is WAY too small for any 12", even so youll get more output and longer life out of a slot port

SOHCKing03 · Post by **SOHCKing03** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:09 pm

No recommended port size... because it is not made to have a ported box. This sub was made by an audio enthusiast who runs diymobileaudio.com. Only about 400 were sold. It is recommended for such a small box because it is not supposed to take a lot of power and with the proper sub-pass, it will work perfect. However, I did not have the right sub-pass so the cone got a little more pressure than it could take (the cone was a minor flaw which wasn't uncovered until people like me tested out the sub).

However, with a stronger cone I will be able to run a small box again and low power for a very nice SQ set-up (and it gets darn loud).

-Brad