Alignment: stock limits

OB · Post by OB » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:07 am

This question is for those of you who have aligned after a spring swap with an otherwise stock alignment setup (no camber bolts etc). I should have my Tein S Techs this week, and my buddy works at Toyota and can get me in to use their rack. Right now the car is aligned to ACR specs on eibach pro kit springs. My question is, what are the limits of the stock adjustments? What is the camber range? I want to keep it under 2 degrees all around, preferably in the 1.5 range. I wanna get toe as close to factory limits as possible. I know camber is gonna be out of the green, but I dont know how far. Anyone who has personally made the adjustments please chime in, i'd like to know what i'm looking at. My tires as hard as rocks (500 t/w) so some neg camber isnt gonna kill em. I've been running 1deg all around for about 2 years now with absolutely no ill tire effects. Anyhow, all input welcome, preferably detailed.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:06 am

If everything is direct fit stuff you wont be able to get much with out crash bolts. If the struts are aftermarket with slots you should be able to get at least -1.

excon · Post by **excon** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:14 am

bone-yard-racing wrote:If everything is direct fit stuff you wont be able to get much with out crash bolts. If the struts are aftermarket with slots you should be able to get at least -1.

what? i think he's getting a set of coilovers from Tein??

sidepipe87 · Post by **sidepipe87** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:22 pm

no.... S Techs are just springs.. he wants to know how much he can change the camber on the struts.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:33 pm

excon wrote:
bone-yard-racing wrote:If everything is direct fit stuff you wont be able to get much with out crash bolts. If the struts are aftermarket with slots you should be able to get at least -1.
what? i think he's getting a set of coilovers from Tein??

He could just send me the money it would be better spent than buying that shit.

LilSparkPlug · Post by **LilSparkPlug** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:32 pm

Here are the SRT alignment specifications. My front and rear camber are around -0.05 because the machine requests 0.0 to -0.07.

Front
Factory Setting Acceptable Range
Camber* 0.00 -.20 to +0.20
Cross Camber 0.00 0.40
Caster +2.60 +1.60 to +3.60
Cross Caster 0.00 1.00
Total Toe +0.20 0.00 to +0.40

Rear
Factory Setting Acceptable Range
Camber -1.00 -0.80 to -1.20
Total Toe +0.30 +0.10 to +0.50
Thrust Angle 0.00 -0.10 to +0.10

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f163/sr ... aq-416630/

Some examples from a neon that I happened to find when searching:

Spirited Street
Camber Toe (total)
Front -.5 to -1.5 deg 1/16" in (+.25 deg)
Rear zero zero

Competition
Camber Toe (total)
Front -2 to -2.5 deg 1/16" in (+.25 deg)
Rear zero to -.5 deg zero

http://faq.neons.org/faq/FAQ_S.html

With stock bolts in the struts you have practically zero adjustability in the camber. Without the performance rear control arms you have no control over toe in the rear. Alot of things on DCX cars are not adjustable without buying other parts. Just an FYI.

Those came out kind of hard to read, though on my editing screen they aren't. I edited to provide the links to the information.

OB · Post by OB » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:15 am

Struts are tokico HP's. Like I said my current aligment is at apprx 1deg camber all around. I'm not worried about toe, I should be able to get that close to stock. What is used to adjust stock camber, the top strut mounts? I've heard of people slotting the holes in the towers to get more camber, anyone have any experience with that?

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:29 am

^ No you slot the mount on the bottom where it bolts to knuckle you are thinking of camber plates if you can find a set that work with stock struts please let me know

OB · Post by OB » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:32 am

Really, the ones on the strut itself need to be slotted? Or the holes in the knuckle? So stock camber is not adj in the front? I would imagine the rear has better range?

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:52 pm

The strut gets the slots

OB · Post by OB » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:32 pm

I'm a bit confused about how changing to a new bolt would be the same thing as slotting the strut. Are the bolts eccentric in some way? I looked at the pic of them on mpx and they look round. Whats the deal with camber bolts? I've never used or even seen them so im not too familiar with how they're adjusted. Are the worth the $40 (front and rear) for the extra "1 deg camber" they promise?

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:52 pm

Stock bolts are the same size as the hole in the kunckle. Crash bolts are undersize it allows the strut to move back on the knuckle to get camber. They are $11 for 2 from the dealership. Start with 1 in each strut (bottom gives most adjustment) and go from there. I can get -3.5 if not more from a bottom and a sightly enlarged upper kuckle hole with a stock bolt(my interperation of ST rules

)

LilSparkPlug · Post by **LilSparkPlug** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:02 pm

Yeah my car was well OVER -3.5 with the camber bolts from Mopar. I have two in each strut and if you want adjustability yes they are WELL worth it.

OB · Post by OB » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:14 am

Can I order the mopar ones for that price online anywhere? Whats the minimum camber (positive) you can get with two camber bolts at each corner? I mean, is the range like 1-3 negative or somewhere in that ballpark?

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:10 am

You could probably get 3.5-4 positive if you wanted is somebody going drifting?

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=294837
http://www.moparpartsamerica.com/partlo ... eid=214583
Be nice to Mr.Dealerman and they should come down in price

OB · Post by OB » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:53 pm

So I can go from -3.5 to +3.5 with these bolts? That sounds too good to be true. No i'm going all negative, just curious. From what I hear our cars need more neg camber in the front than the rear, is this true? What is the ideal setting?

LilSparkPlug · Post by **LilSparkPlug** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:20 pm

Yes you can....I installed the bolts and didn't mark them beforehand....meet over -3.5 degrees of camber. Two bolts on each strut. No I did not want it to be like this...it looks horrid.

OB · Post by OB » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:17 pm

Damn thats mad camber. haha that does looks pretty bad. How much is that?

LilSparkPlug · Post by **LilSparkPlug** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:25 pm

Its more than -3.5 I wanna say it was -3.74 on that side.

OB · Post by OB » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:57 pm

Looks more like 10 degrees! haha

LilSparkPlug · Post by **LilSparkPlug** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:38 pm

Ha ha its friggin ghetto looking as all hell. I don't see how thats safe or functional for daily driving. But it is acheivable with these bolts.

OB · Post by OB » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:43 pm

That's wild, did you get a chance to cruise around with it like that? How'd it handle?

LilSparkPlug · Post by **LilSparkPlug** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:08 pm

Once I realized how bad it was it drove 5 miles to the dealership (who has in ground alignment racks woo hoo save the bumper!!!) and that was it. That was the only wheel that was like that. The other rear wheel was around -2ish. It rode like shit.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:54 pm

LilSparkPlug wrote:Ha ha its friggin ghetto looking as all hell. I don't see how thats safe or functional for daily driving. But it is acheivable with these bolts.

It dosent take that much to make strut cars turn(at least neons). But wishbones or Hondas can run that or more chews the hell out of the tires though.

Suspension stuff is the opposite of the opposite of what you think and or hear(lower is better is a pretty common one). Camber is one that makes sense(in the rear anyway). The rear tires dont turn(they do if you have stock bushings but it isnt eneough to matter) so more camber either way takes more of the contact patch off the road giving you less rear grip and making the car turn. Get it wrong and you get snap oversteer and really bad brake steer.

OB · Post by OB » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:40 am

I've always heard that a small amount of negative camber not only stabilizes the car in a straight line but also helps in cornering by making up for the camber difference when weight is shifted to the outside tires. The negative static camber allows the cornering camber to be closer to neutral (zero) to improve cornering grip by keeping the contact patch as large as possible, while the inside tire is already leaning into the turn, increasing turn-in capabilities. I'm no physicist but this makes perfect sense to me.

BTW, Tein S techs are on, and I couldnt be more impressed. Roll is almost non-existent during mild cornering, and the high speed response is excellent. The car feels so much more balanced, and the steering inputs are much more accurate. A lot of the slosh is gone, and the car feels like it will do anything you want. The only thing that's scary is how easy the rear will come out during hard on-throttle cornering. With a good feathering technique the overall cornering speed feels much faster. Just gotta get the hang of it. These springs feel like a good amount of engineering went into them, they just perform that well.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:52 pm

^ Front tires and a small ammount
The only way to get a car to turn is:
Add front grip
Take away rear grip
When you can get no more front grip you take from the rear. On a 1gn 2.5-3.5 puts almost all the tire on the road when turning 3.5 gets you better turn in but much more likely to spin tires on corner exit.
Good to hear you like the s-techs but I am thinking koni/ground controls or Mopar/KWs for Miley.

OB · Post by OB » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:06 pm

I'm starting to wonder if I might need MORE rear grip to keep the oversteer under control. I played with tire inflation when I did my spring swap the other night to see about getting more grip. I went from 35fr/40r to 30fr/35r. The car is like glue now, I dont know if the tire setup helped as much as the springs did, but something worked! I could take more air out of the rear to get more tire on the road, but I dont want to get to the underinflated point and start wearing out the tires. Any input BYR?

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:33 pm

On the street I run 38/36 for auto-x I am about 38/40 I am still getting used to the toyos but they work at much lower pressures than the 'kooks did. I would start 36/36 and feel the car out you should be able to feel a 2psi change either way. On the street and/or a track day I like full grip from all 4 tires and even if that means a bit of understeer that is still what I strive for. For auto-x I want the car to be a bit unstable so that it will rotate without having to left foot brake(I cant do it and probably will never learn).

OB · Post by OB » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:11 am

Once mine approach 40 (especially in the rear) traction seems to fade quick. I've been playing with pressure a bit since I got these tires and found the low setting I have now to be the stickiest by far. Somehow this car doesnt understeer uner throttle no matter what. It's brake-understeer that I cant seem to shake. Front heavy FTL.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:16 pm

You shouldnt be turning under braking

Just watch for lift/snap oversteer it is very hard to catch.