thinking outloud

[Guard1an]

Hi all, was thinking out loud to my self, and was courious intrigued into the possibility of a RWD conversion to the Neon. Think about it, if you find a blown 4cyl dakota 5spd, you could use the pedals, trans driveshaft, cut to fit of course. If the rear is a 5-lug 8 1/4" it will make thing easier, and you can swap the nasty droms out for nice disc brakes from a '94-'98 Jeep Grand Cherokee laredo,don't remember when they switched to 6 lug, thinking '98-current. Use your engine, move the rack and pinion down and under the engine. weld up a engine cradle to fit the 90deg turn, and to hold the relocated rack, setup a 4link in the rear. hell you could even swap a 3.9 V6 or a 318/360, with 5spd to match depending on what Dakota you find on the cheap. Some day my friends, it will be possible to buy a complete swap kit, someday........


-Mike

[blue demon02]

Hi all, was thinking out loud to my self, and was courious intrigued into the possibility of a RWD conversion to the Neon. Think about it, if you find a blown 4cyl dakota 5spd, you could use the pedals, trans driveshaft, cut to fit of course. If the rear is a 5-lug 8 1/4" it will make thing easier, and you can swap the nasty droms out for nice disc brakes from a '94-'98 Jeep Grand Cherokee laredo,don't remember when they switched to 6 lug, thinking '98-current. Use your engine, move the rack and pinion down and under the engine. weld up a engine cradle to fit the 90deg turn, and to hold the relocated rack, setup a 4link in the rear. hell you could even swap a 3.9 V6 or a 318/360, with 5spd to match depending on what Dakota you find on the cheap. Some day my friends, it will be possible to buy a complete swap kit, someday........


-Mike

Do it and tell us how to do it. Others have done RWD swaps but most of the time people start but never finish it. Biggest Issue I see is that if you don't have access to fabrication equipment it isn't possible the tunnel on our cars is not big enough.

[Swordfish2Cowboy]

"Boy, I'm tired. I want to take a nap, but it's so late already that if I sleep now I won't get up in time to go to the shop. But if I don't sleep, I'll be a wreck all day tomorrow. I really need to do some more laundry."

[excon]

That sounds awesome of course... drifting in a neon!

Anything is possible with enough money, and this sounds like quite a job!

[occasional demons]

If you put the engine in the cabin (V8)you may have enough room to fit it in there for a rwd application. The hood line just isn't favorable, even a four cyl would be tough to do fully under the hood. You would need a bulge from hell to clear the front of the engine. The better option would be to skin the car and build a tube frame/chassis, and put the Neon shell on that. Then you can rock whatever you want underneath. But then GL with insuring it! That would be a track only car.

[c987long]

or could you possibly just make it a mid engine car like a nsx or mr2 turbo, that would mean a shorter driveshaft and maybe a little less fab.

[INVUJerry]

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Smal ... 137828.htm

He put the whole subframe from the front of the car, in the back.

Kinda like this guy did with the durocco:
http://www.durocco.com/

Discuss.

[cbjones26]

there was a guy near me that put a 302 in his 95 neon sport had alot of $$ into it and only had it on the road for like 3 days before he wrecked it these cars are not made for that if u want a rwd car either buy a rwd ! doing a conversion like this isnt a good financial move for anyone big waste of $$!!! imo anyways

[aperson]

You won't need a big lump in the hood if you just tip the motor on it's side at an angle or just lay it down flat, granted that you'll have to mess with the oil pickup tube or go dry sump. Or find a boxer that you could wire up and make work.

[Guard1an]

guys, guys, guys simple plan of attack

1.) any engine you put in, ie 4,6 or 8, will need to be put low in the cradle/frame to help with the CG.

2.) low profile rear sump oilpan and swinging pick up, problem solved.

3.) sub frame connectors, with roll cage to minimize torsional flex.

4.) don't have all the tools right now, still need a good welder, chop saw, frame jig, etc.

5.) it'll be a future project of mine, right now I have to focus on prepping myself, because I ship out to the Navy on Nov. 25, 2008. really cool thing is with waht I am doing AM *Aviation structural Mechanic* They teach me how to MIG & TIG weld, use plasma cutters, fix and repair composites and sheetmetal on aircraft, along with fixing and repairing hydraulic systems !!!

Till then its bolt on and tuning for my '00 Neon base !!!

-Mike

[occasional demons]

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Smal ... 137828.htm

He put the whole subframe from the front of the car, in the back.

Kinda like this guy did with the durocco:
http://www.durocco.com/

Discuss.

All I gotta say is I miss my Dasher, and that is one hell of a sawzall blade!

[danman132x]

Here's one for ya. I read it's sitting on a toyota frame

[Guard1an]

That poor neon, see imports do hate us !!!


-Mike

[excon]

I think that pic is awesome in it's own way, but it does look silly.

[matguy]

I can't see much of the Durroco site, but it sounds like a smaller version of the Twinstar http://www.popularmechanics.com/automot ... 69501.html

[Guard1an]

WoW 4600lb caddy that almost 2 neons !! but it does bring up the Idea of a twin engine srt or mid engine RWD. Use a DOHC 2.7-3.5 (?) engine its already foward mounted FWD, just graft the neccesities over and bam I think that would be slightly more feasable then 2 complete drive trains. But I still stick by my RWD concept

-Mike

BTW does anyone know the highest HP street driven NA or turbo is ?

[matguy]

If you did 2 engines you'd almost have to do them as ATX's though. I don't think you could get the front and rear shift linkage to match up for a pair of MTX's (I haven't looked at them, they're not cable linkage, are they?) and you'd have to keep the clutches adjusted the same (unless you like it when one engine revvs up while the other is trying to launch the car.)

With ATX's it'd also be easier to lock one in park and smoke one set of tires, then swap and smoke the other set... and then put them in different directions and smoke all 4 without going anywhere. Although, you loose the ability to drive on one engine for any usefull period of time (as it'd be just like towing) unless you figured a good way to pump fluid through the neutral transmission, maybe they could share fluid paths in some way? Or use an external electric pump.

Then, it'd also be nice to be able to control the throttle balance, you might like a little extra power in the rear, or the rear might get fishy and have to tone it down. Or, you could get real cool and build a system to compare wheel speed and use that to initiate throttle balancing, which might work well for traction control.

Cooling might be your other big issue, while it's possible they could share the stock radiator, I'm not sure if it's enough to cope with both engines for an extended period of time, especially in hot weather, but depending on how much room you have in back you might be able to basically mount one on the (louvered or perforated) trunk lid with fans blowing up and out (not super ideal since you're pulling hot engine bay air, but otherwise you'd be pulling from the vaccume vortex behind the rear window, but maybe you could duct air from the wheel well.)

Anyway, I've thought about this for years after I first saw the Twinstar in a magazine, but the time I really got in to thinking about it was for an '84 CRX that I had. But that came out of looking at a Del Sol and being completely floored that they made this decent looking mid engine body and didn't put an engine in the middle of it (really it's like a rounded 914 or Fiero GT, or a little less racy version of a 2nd gen MR2, could have been the mild Honda version of the NSX, and yes I know the NSX is a Honda in Japan.)

But, I look around while I'm stuck in traffic every day and pick out cars it'd be fun to make a AWD dual engine sleeper out of. Like a SHO, especially if you took off the SHO exterior pieces for a dual SHO sleeper, but the first gen were all MTX's, so you'd have to get a 2nd or 3rd gen, and I really don't like the 3rd gen oval look. If you're really cool then you get a Taurus wagon and switch it over to a SHO like Car and Driver did, then use that to build the Dual SHO. Now that's a sleeper.

Oh, sorry, I ramble a lot.

[matguy]

BTW does anyone know the highest HP street driven NA or turbo is ?

Cars I know of off the top of my head:

John Carmak (Id software, the guy that built the Doom and Quake game engines) had an 1000 HP Twin Turbo Testa Rosa.

Hennessy makes 1000+ HP Twin Turbo Vipers.

Lingfelter makes 1000+ HP Vettes and a 1100HP Twin Turbo (1300HP on high octane race fuel) prototype/tester, fully streetable with standard street interior, stock A/C, and (from the Lingelter web site) "...still has the factory style independent rear suspension and could be a daily driver."

Then there's the Veyron with Quad turbos on a W16 making 1001HP.

Not a whole lot of NA cars with super huge horsepower, the Mclaren F1 has 627HP and the stock 4th gen Viper has 600, but the GTS-R got up to 750HP, but I'm not sure if that was acieved without boost... or if it was street legal (the Competeition Coupe wasn't street legal.)

[Guard1an]

I'm a dumb ass, I ment the highest HP Na/forced induction Neons. could you imagine a 600hp RWD V-10 Neon........

Engine+drivetrain=$15,000

Complete stand alone to run it=$10,000

being able to shut up and shut down 98% of whats on the road......Priceless !!!

-Mike

[occasional demons]

I don't think you could get the front and rear shift linkage to match up for a pair of MTX's (I haven't looked at them, they're not cable linkage, are they?) and you'd have to keep the clutches adjusted the same (unless you like it when one engine revvs up while the other is trying to launch the car.)

Both hydraulic clutches tied to one master cyl should take care of that. As far as shift linkage they are cable, but again it could be done hydraulically. Proportioning valves may be needed to keep the flow even, but it could be done.
But I do like the idea of an LH body drivetrain mounted in the rear. 3.5 H.O. ... Keeping the front tires planted could be interesting.

[matguy]

I don't think you could get the front and rear shift linkage to match up for a pair of MTX's (I haven't looked at them, they're not cable linkage, are they?) and you'd have to keep the clutches adjusted the same (unless you like it when one engine revvs up while the other is trying to launch the car.)

Both hydraulic clutches tied to one master cyl should take care of that. As far as shift linkage they are cable, but again it could be done hydraulically. Proportioning valves may be needed to keep the flow even, but it could be done.
But I do like the idea of an LH body drivetrain mounted in the rear. 3.5 H.O. ... Keeping the front tires planted could be interesting.

Most of what I was getting at, clutch wise, is you'll likely have different clutch wear, so eventually one would engage before the other. Off the top of my head, I would think that either the issue would balance itself, or possibly get worse over time. My first thought was that as one catches before the other and does the bulk of the launch that it'd wear faster and they'd catch up; on the other hand, as the one clutch is doing the launch, the other is slipping while the engine revs up, possibly glazing that clutch. So, it'll probably depend on how you drive.

Now, with the shift linkage, being cable it'd probably be easier, but I assume the rear linkage is going to be longer, so you'd likely end up with a little bit more cable stretch. I think you'd loose a lot of shifter feel, possibly be hard to tell when they're both fully in gear, which could really slow down your shifting.

Far be it for me to say it wouldn't work, just sounds like it'd take a -lot- of play to get them synched and end up with a lot of ongoing maintenance.

Maybe an ATX/MTX mix would work well. I'd want to come up with a cut-off mechanism for the MTX during shifting (unless you really like to power shift all the time and bounce off the rev limiter during shifting.) Otherwise, you'd loose a lot of acceleration between shifts when you let up on the throttle and the ATX shifts up then back down again when you hammer it. Of course you could lock the ATX in "1" aka "maximim acceleration mode" and keep it in the highest gear all the time (or when you're playing) which would fix the shifting problem, but add in a whole new accleration issue as you're compression braking during the shift (and look like you're on Apollo 13 between rocket stages.) I'd just want an electronic throttle to cut it to idle on the MTX attached engine during shifts, via a button or clutch switch. Also, doing the ATX/MTX mix would give you an easier single-engine mode as you'd just put the MTX in neutral and drive on the ATX.

Lots of options, lots of fun.

[occasional demons]

The advantage of hydraulic is that uneven wear is taken up by the fluid, so both will move the same. With rods or cable that is not possible without some kind of constant adjustment. If there was two seperate master cyl's then there would be the same troubles as cable or rods to engage them. But one master will work just as your brakes do. Providing all the other parts are in good shape the force is applied equally.

[matguy]

gotcha, I see how that would work.

Now, where's that welding for dummies book....

[Guard1an]

occasional demons, yea sounds kinky don't it. keep the radiator up front, run electric inline water pumps to and from to keep pressure up and heat down. Either stainless or aluminium tubing the length of the car for plumbing the coolant. Reinforce the front end to survive a head on crash at highway speeds.......because you will be putting the fuel tank in the nose, along with any weight ( shouldn't need to if nose rollcage for fuel tank is built right, Ie try to achieve 50/50 weight split) will be heavier than a normal neon, but a turbo setup can solve all your problems.

But then again what about mounting the trans axle in the rear, engine up front and finding a way to couple the 2 together, sort of like the plymouth prowlers......

-Mike

[matguy]

But then again what about mounting the trans axle in the rear, engine up front and finding a way to couple the 2 together, sort of like the plymouth prowlers......

-Mike

Porsche 924/944/928's are Front engine, rear transaxle. As well as the Corvettes at the C5 generation. So there's plenty of previous "art" to borrow from.

[Guard1an]

most definitly, porsche would be a good choice, with the opposed 4, the 8 from a vette would be a bit more work, not to mention a shit load more expensive. I wonder how much of a difference there is from a LH trans to a transaxle........ must do some research on this.....

-Mike

[matguy]

most definitly, porsche would be a good choice, with the opposed 4, the 8 from a vette would be a bit more work, not to mention a shit load more expensive. I wonder how much of a difference there is from a LH trans to a transaxle........ must do some research on this.....

-Mike

Not an opposed 4 in those Porsches.

The 924 was in inline 4.
The 944 was a Turbo inline 4.
The 928 was a 5.0 V8.

Otherwise, anything Porsche with a horizontally opposed 4 or 6 (that I know of) was either rear or all wheel drive.

Vette-wise. The V8 is just a standard LS1 (/2/3/6/7/9) that can be had for fairly cheap, and might fit under the hood. The transaxle, I would think, would be the more expensive part (being a lower production Vette only piece.)

[Guard1an]

see you can learn something new everyday !! Well it seems really simple then, We can use our 2.0/2.4 L engine with an adapter plate mounted to the transaxle "input", carefully graft in the porsche rear suspension/trans axle, lengthen or shorten the "drive shaft" as needed. and whammy RWD Neon. I know it sounds easier than it really is, But I think this is a more feasable attemp, not only financially but mechanically as well,

-Mike

[racer12306]

anything that originated on a porsche is not going to be cheap.

[occasional demons]

The rear axle in the Charger/300 is also similiar to the 'vette axle.
6.1 liter RWD Neon.