Timing belt is tore up from the floor up

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:26 pm

So from all the reading on here, I figured the water pump died. Bought all the parts for the job... including timing belt, new MPx UDP.

We took off the timing cover... I'll be buying a new one at the dealership...

Looks like it was holding in the belt... barely. The belt was walking.

This belt was ready to go! I can't imagine it would have lasted more than a few moments like this:

We set the timing marks on the crank gear together, but the timing marks on the cam are off a bit... I can't tell if it's 1 tooth or 2...

I wasn't overly worried until this morning when I read up on here on some other threads... is 1-2 tooth skip really that close a call? I know on other interference engines, you can usually survive one or two teeth, but after that you contact the valves.

It looks like the timing is retarded....?

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:34 pm

The water pump bearing is done for. So much play in it, misalignment, drove the belt right into the cover.

You should be fine on just a 1 tooth skip.

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:23 pm

Thanks Matt, that was my million dollar question. So one tooth is prolly ok... what about two teeth? I can't tell if it's one or two.

Hopefully I'll have this sucker together this weekend.

Donkeypuncher · Post by **Donkeypuncher** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:41 pm

I believe 3 teeth is the the threshold of valve damage so you should be good. That belt wasn't going to last much longer, especially at high rpms. I'm not sure exactly how the belt moved itself out like that though. Looks like you just saved yourself about a grand in damages, that was pretty close.

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:06 pm

Ahhh thanks to both of you for the teeth info... here's a closer look at the skippage:

and as you can see, the crank is at TDC:

Yeah I'm feeling a lot more relieved at the notion that my longblock is not blown

Again thanks for the help.

Donkeypuncher · Post by **Donkeypuncher** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:27 pm

That's probably about as close as you can get without damaging the valves and pistons. I bet you almost crapped your pants when you saw just how close you were to breaking that belt.

I had almost the same feeling when I pulled my water pump off. The O-ring for the inlet tube was sticking out and the water pump blades were hitting it. If it would have caught and seized the pump, I would have been screwed.

ZeroChad · Post by **ZeroChad** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:42 pm

Thats scary stuff man! Glad you caught it in time.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:53 pm

Awesome catch! IIRC there will be a CEL if the timing is off too much. It is much more sensitve on NGC, but I'm thinkin' something around 8 to 12 degrees?

From Allpar

Timing belt replacement issues
Bill wrote: “I've just completed changing the timing belt, water pump, blown cam and crank seal and upgraded to the mechanical tensioner. I was extremely careful not to rotate the cam or crank and marked the old belt and pulleys with a paint pen before disassembling. I transfered the marks from the old belt to the new and installed. When I was removing the original belt, I noticed the arrow on the crank sprocket was pointing just to the right of the timing arrow on the block. The key on the crank was in direct alignment with the arrow on the block. Before I put the new belt on I rotated the crank slightly back so the arrow on the crank sprocket and arrow on the block where in direct alignment. I started the belt on the crank sprocket working counterclockwise up around the water pump and cam. I set the tension and checked my paint markings. The cam markings were dead on as well as the paint markings on the crank sprocket. However I noticed the crank sprocket rotated slightly to the right again putting it in the original position where the crank sprocket arrow is just to the right of the arrow on the block. The new belt is in EXACTLY the same position as the old was. Should I be concerned about the crank arrows not aligning dead on? The car ran great on the 50 mile trek home.”
AllanC responded: “I chanaged the timing belt on my 2003 Neon and noticed the same situation. When the camshaft is aligned with its timing mark the crankshaft sprocket is slightly off from its mark. But the discrepancy is less than 1/2 tooth, so since your engine is running fine, you have it the timing set correctly. If the timing were 1 tooth off I believe the powertrain control module would sense this and illuminate the check engine light. The variance is probably due to a qualilty control issue when the sprockets are made and the timing mark is stamped in the sprockets.”

The covers arent always accurate either. I didn't bother with marking the belts, I just lined up the marks, rotated twice and re checked. A little tip, tho a bit more work, is to remove the rocker cover and loosen the rocker shafts so all the valves close. This allows for safe torquing of the cam bolt (if something slips you don't crash a valve.)

fixitmattman · Post by **fixitmattman** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:11 pm

The timing's out because the water pump is fuxored (from the pic's it's really bad, hence why your belt and cover is shredded). You should find that once you get a new good water pump in there it will line up correctly within the half tooth or so (the bad pump is throwing the sheave ceter distances out of wack allowing the top to rotate more).

Remember to test start the engine without the front cover or accessories on to verify timing before strapping it all back up together.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:20 pm

Good point, I was thinking he was /has changed the water pump. If you haven't, just keep turning it by hand, and you will see the belt walk, possibly right off the WP pulley.

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:47 pm

Yeah actually we had to keep pushing the belt back onto the pump's gear, it wanted to walk off in less than one rotation.l That's what caused the belt to cut into the old outer timing cover.

contagious18 · Post by **contagious18** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:47 pm

how many miles were on ur car?

Donkeypuncher · Post by **Donkeypuncher** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:00 am

I would guess close to, or maybe over, 100k miles since it's a '00. The condition of that belt makes me lean more towards over 100k.

contagious18 · Post by **contagious18** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:56 pm

im at 111k doing my timing belt, mag cam, timing belt tensioner and waterpump next weekend

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:25 pm

Wow.... I would of shat my pants too if I saw that!

Doing mine at around 75k in the SRT.

Arro,

Was the car running very poorly before you started to work on it and inspect the belt? Did I miss out on another thread>?

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:11 pm

It was running fine but the pump had the pump squeal that the other guy posted in his video... then it shut off. I restarted it and it ran rough, so now I know that's because it skipped a tooth.

I didn't get a chance to finish it this weekend, I had a busy weekend organizing crap for my other car club, and junkyard hopping for that car. I did pick up a new timing cover and new cam and crank seals from the Dodge dealership tho, so I'll be doing the rest of the work soon.

Yeah your mileage estimate is close... I'm over 100K. Not a whole lot, but I should have done this sooner. I'm damn lucky and I hope my pictures motivate anyone overdue for a timing belt and water pump change to do their change now while it's not too late!

NiteHawk · Post by **NiteHawk** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:56 pm

I'm hoping and praying that I dont blow my motor this coming year... I'm putting off doing the timing belt and stuff cause I want to do an SRT swap on my car finally, and I'de rather not put all that work into the 2L if i'm just going to swap it out for a 2.4L

my 04 has 128k miles.....I pray it lasts till I can swap

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:24 pm

Matt take a look at the pics, man... 50 bux is cheap for a good solid timing belt. I know it's some work, but you have no idea what condition it's in until you see it.

As far as the SRT swap, you of all people are overdue, man

contagious18 · Post by **contagious18** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:12 am

ur pictures motivated me to do my change this weekend

NiteHawk · Post by **NiteHawk** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:22 am

yeah but you california boys dont have 15F weather to deal with either.....working on a car is a lot easier in warmer climates, lol

Arro · Post by **Arro** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:19 pm

Well he's right... we finished the job a little at a time, since I was pretty sick for the past week. Last week I was wearing a beanie and layers, then a couple days ago I was wearing short sleeves because it was 75 out. Go figure.

So we got the new belt on, put everything back.... installed those damn AGP dogbones. OMG does it vibrate like crazy at idle. I'm getting used to it. Before I could budge the engine easilly with my hand, now, it's like trying to push a solid granite mountain.

All I need now is a yr. 2000 MTX and I'll be set

Thanks to all who helped with info in the various threads.

contagious18 · Post by **contagious18** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:05 pm

NiteHawk wrote:yeah but you california boys dont have 15F weather to deal with either.....working on a car is a lot easier in warmer climates, lol

right now im missing the california weather. it doesnt get any higher than 50 sometimes now.

asanti · Post by **asanti** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:32 am

I'll be doing this fun project soon myself. I've got that "whine" in the waterpump so it'll have to be replaced soon... fun. Anyone know where I can get the Gates racing timing belt + waterpump as a package? Ebay has packages but not w/ the blue timing belt though. At least I'll get to swap to a mechanical tensioner and dump the hydraulic one!

Later
Allex

86fazer · Post by **86fazer** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:29 pm

whew glad I found this place! Water pump bearing just started grinding and spitting water right after a 620 mile trip over the 4th of july weekend.

pretty cool RockAuto.com sells a kit, water pump, belt, tensioner ( upgraded 2004 model) and serpentine tensioner bearing/pulley

thanks for all the photos you guys posted on this r&r wife's 2000 model just hit 85k an whamo!