? on a/f ratio

neon angel · Post by **neon angel** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:04 am

ok i went to a dyno and got an a/f ratio baseline

how would i go about tuning this????

Danteneon · Post by **Danteneon** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:30 pm

Unless you are running some kind of stand-alone engine management system (like Megasquirt or AEM), you can't.

What are you trying to tune? I'm not sure what the two different lines on the graph represent. Are those two different runs?

neon angel · Post by **neon angel** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:44 pm

2 different runs the first was done with the car not at operating temp the blue line
the red line with operating temp

not trying to me mean but i dont want all the bs about ngc i am able to use an safc on my car so all ngc sh#T aside ,going off the red line what ould you guys suggest i do with the fuel

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:55 pm

You cannot tune the NGC car. I don't give a rats ass about what tuner you have. The NGC will always look at the AF ratio and tune itself back to where it wants to be.

But, you can go ahead and not believe me and keep making threads every other week asking how to tune a car that wants to be at stoich. This NGC has been around since 2003, and we still haven't figured out a way around it yet.

GrApHite03 ran an SAFC in his turbo car, and he also had an adjustable fuel controller. He put in SRT injectors at idle, and you know what it did? It pulled fuel back until it was at the same A/F you are right now. You know what that means? An SAFC wont work on an 03-05. End of story.

Good luck not believing me.

BTW, if you were really at 16:1 A/F your car would be knocking and pinging like there is no tomorrow.

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:36 pm

I found a way around it. I unplugged it.

neon angel · Post by **neon angel** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:22 pm

invujerry wrote:You cannot tune the NGC car. I don't give a rats ass about what tuner you have. The NGC will always look at the AF ratio and tune itself back to where it wants to be.

But, you can go ahead and not believe me and keep making threads every other week asking how to tune a car that wants to be at stoich. This NGC has been around since 2003, and we still haven't figured out a way around it yet.

GrApHite03 ran an SAFC in his turbo car, and he also had an adjustable fuel controller. He put in SRT injectors at idle, and you know what it did? It pulled fuel back until it was at the same A/F you are right now. You know what that means? An SAFC wont work on an 03-05. End of story.

Good luck not believing me.

BTW, if you were really at 16:1 A/F your car would be knocking and pinging like there is no tomorrow.

it was at 16 1 with a cold engine the guy running the dyno was stupid pulled car on dyno and ran it no warm up at all my temp gauge was still at 0 for the blue line and the red line was at 180 so the red line was the same for 4 pulls and not believing you no i dont cuz i was able to pull pull in jan watch the a/f chang e and stay that way since then and i just installed the mag intake and like i said all the ngc stuff aside what do you other guys think about the red line not the blue line i know im going to get flamed constantly so if you dont have any opinions on my ? and all your going to say is ngc this and ngc that PLEASE dont answer with that thanks?

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:29 pm

I believe I've played with the NGC as much or more than anyone here. MY answer is to unplug it. The NGC is a great computer, but there is no product to tune it, and all products that typically work to fool an ECU into tuning differently don't work on an NGC. It's just too stubborn. It doesn't even go open loop at WOT. The only way I could get it to go consistantly open was to unplug a sensor that was vital to EGO correction.

That being said, what do you want to change? Are you detonating? I mean, seriously. You are running an ATX. You're not far enough into upgrading that you need to even worry about the ECU.

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:30 pm

Post your whole dyno plot.

Alright:
1) Get a wideband.
2) Install it before your cat (do NOT use a tailpipe, anything you are reading after the cat isn't accurate).
3) Add or subtract fuel as you think you need to. When you're done, turn off the wideband.
4) Turn it back on a week later and notice that your a/f ratio is back to where it was before.
5)Bang your head

excon · Post by **excon** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:44 pm

hate to threadjack... but... oh well

i too want to see your entire dyno sheet. Is it possible that if you just ran MS with your current mods you'd see more power? Wouldn't you be able to adjust your a/f ratio too?

I think I found a solution to your problem

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:06 pm

They wont see much of a gain with an ATX. MS dosen't control our ATX yet. BTW, just thought of something. I think the two lines on the graph may be confused. Our cars are supposed to run RICH on startup, and then lean out as the car is warm. I still think the readings you are getting are hosed up.

BTW, an SAFC is really only good for pulling fuel, not adding it back.

dbesade · Post by **dbesade** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:28 am

neon angel wrote:i know im going to get flamed constantly so if you dont have any opinions on my ? and all your going to say is ngc this and ngc that PLEASE dont answer with that thanks?

Why be an ass? The people attempting to help you in this thread have probably forgotten more about NGC and Neons in general than most people ever learn in the first place. You should listen to them

Don't like the Fuel Trim you have now? Buy an SRT4 and a DiabloSport and tune it OR as already suggested, go with Megasquirt, although you would have to do the MTX Swap or find a standalone controller for your ATX (if there is one). There is no way to tune or otherwise change the Fuel Trim on the NGC Neons, none, zip, nada.

-Dave

*Edited to be nicer

gilly02le · Post by **gilly02le** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:23 am

neon angel wrote:My Posts = Fail

Don't you think people could help you better, if they could understand you?

neon angel · Post by **neon angel** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:48 am

when did i write that

hul kogan · Post by **hul kogan** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:18 am

neon angel wrote:when did i write that

You didn't...

Anyway, as everyone has mentioned...you are fighting a losing battle with NGC. You either live with it and know that your performance mods are doing very little or you go the MegaSquirt (or a different standalone) route. That's all there is to it.

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:34 pm

Well, there's megasquirt, TEC3, AEM makes one, Apexi Power FC.

Megasquirt you can get up and running for around $400, and there are people with maps already for them, everything else is atleast $1k, and not as used in the neon community.