Alignment Adjustment (split from PN Chassis)

rich tideswell · Post by **rich tideswell** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:23 pm

In all honesty, these "camber bolts" , or 'crash bolts" are a bad idea and here's why.

Say your Neon gets in a collision with a semi and comes out the looser. No mattter how good the body shop is, they'll never get it perfect, so the quick and dirty way out to get the suspension aligned within spec is to buy crash bolt kits. They're a smaller diameter bolt than the stock ones and that's what gives them their slop for adjustability. So far not a bad thing as this is what you want, The bad news is that smaller diameter bolts have less clamping force and that's when the suspension loses it's alignment settings.

The good news is that there is a cheap - FREE - solution. Simply elongate the holes in the strut body to make them into slots and you can adjust the camber. You could use a file or a grinder to do this. This keeps the stock bolts applying the correct amount of force to retain the alignment settings.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:01 pm

I agree with him^^^
I picked up the aftermarket bolts, and ended up switching to factory because as soon as I hit a pothole, the laignment was off

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:28 pm

The early ACR struts actually had those "slots" from the factory.
but then they stopped, and it had to be done in the field.

From FSM, to illustrate what Rich was decribing:

Edit: wow that's huge! Meh, us old folks can see it!

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:00 am

Ok, if this discussion is going to continue,please start a topic outside of the part number request...thanks

OB · Post by OB » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:14 pm

I split this into a new topic so we can discuss it further.

I notice in the diagram they only show the top strut bolt hole as needing to be notched. Is this correct? Also, in the event that I want extra positive camber, would I just notch it on both sides of the hole (following the implied arc, of course)?

I've thought about trying this method before, but didn't have much info on the procedure. Thanks

benzsxt · Post by **benzsxt** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:26 pm

If you crash your Neon into a PARKED semi it would total loss. I have been in worked in a body shop for 10 years and have never seen crash bolts installed in a car. If it doesnt take an alignment something is wrong and it needs more repair. I dont think a reputable shop would do these repairs. I have elongated knuckles to gain camber on custom cars to stuff tires. I will be doing this on my Neon in the future. It would be best to measure how much camber you need

hansken_yo · Post by **hansken_yo** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:26 pm

I guess I need to step in here from personal experience to say that shops CAN straighten a car. In the case of Neons, it will most likely be a total loss except in special cases such as the one I experienced. The shop did straighten my car, well enough that when I got my alignment done recently the guy was explaining things and telling me how well my caster was and how they are never that close after cars are in an accident. He was then even more surprised when I told him about my accident and which shop did the work (then he reciprocated by saying that shop does excellent work).

So, shops can straighten cars if they have enough value to do so.

now as for camber... hehehe... you can use mulitple methods of altering your camber and I would stick to a few of them.

One would be using camber bolts, and I would say this over undersized bolts due to the strength of the bolts and intent of use. This is where I would start since it is also the least invasive.

The next one I would do (and have done) is the extension of the top hole of the strut to knuckle as described above.

if you have struts that have camber plates your good to go on adjustments there, but there really isn't another means (those that I would recommend) of altering camber on our cars.

One last thing, OG, Why would you want positive camber? If your trying to find a means of having less negative that is one thing, but rolling on the OUTSIDE of your tires is just wrong.... don't do it

.

Neon4Life · Post by **Neon4Life** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:34 pm

umm from readind the first 2 posts.

well all i have to say is i have camber bolts on 2 of my wheels. and actually having them on there has made my alignment last a hell of alot longer then before when i didnt have it on there. and ive hit one or 2 big pot holes and my alignment is perfect.
also its been 6 months since my last alignment and i wont be needing one anytime soon.
oh and before i had then on there my alignment only lasted like a 3 or 4 months.

OB · Post by OB » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:32 am

hanksen - Yeah I was referring to pos camber as a way to reduce neg camber. I'm at 2-3 right now if I had to guess, and i'd like to be under 2 and dead even all around. Maybe 1.5 all around.

While we're at it, anyone find the optimal toe settings for turn-in? I heard a hair toe-in at the rear is a good idea in general. Any thoughts?

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:56 am

I like 0.5 out in front and 0.0 in the rear, I tried 0.75 in front and it was a little sketchy above 100 not impossible to drive but I didnt notice all that much reduction in turn in.
For anybody that cares, if you slot the struts and want to run an SCCA auto-x you will START off in street mod because of the change in mounting points.

hansken_yo · Post by **hansken_yo** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:21 am

Okay, so this week I had my car corner balanced and aligned according to an "aggressive street" setting.

This is setup for spirited driving on the street and an efficient camber/toe for cornering with little extra wear on the tires.

It essentially breaks down to -1.5* in the front and -.1.75* in the rear with 0 toe.

OG, Camber bolts only give +or- .75* of camber. This alone will not be enough to get you down to a camber you desire. I don't know if I would slot the strut outward from the core strut too much if at all since there is not a lot of "meat" as you move outward, but ask around for opinions from race shops and alignment places.

OB · Post by OB » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:04 pm

I figure if I remove about 1mm of material in each direction I should get at least +/- 2*, if not more. Even if I can only get down to -2* all around, my main concern is uniformity. Tire wear is a secondary concern, but is not in any way a part of my weariness. I think i'll keep toe at 0, unless someone has strong evidence suggesting otherwise. Toe is also far worse for tire wear than camber (all things equal) so that is a risk that is probably not worth the results.

While i'm at it, regarding the installation of urethane bushings...

Q: How much will the removal/re installation of the rear torque struts affect alignment? Rear lateral arms? How about front LCA's?

The reason I ask is because I want an idea of how bad my alignment will be between bushing installs. It's nearly impossible to do the entire kit in one day, and i'll also have the task of slotting the struts before a proper alignment will be possible post-install. I figure the front LCA's will take 5-6 hrs alone, since I have to take them to work to use the hydro press. So that's one days worth of work. The lateral arms and torque struts will probably take just as long. Since these things always end up being more difficult than you expect, I'm going to assume that I need three solid days to nail this project out. That translates to about a week or more, since I don't have 3 days in a row to have my car out of commission. Boy this sounds worse and worse every time I think about it

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:10 pm

Just mark everything that has an adjustment and you should be able to put it back close

OB · Post by OB » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:35 pm

That's the plan. How are the rear lateral arms adjusted? What's the best way to mark those? And the torque struts?

hansken_yo · Post by **hansken_yo** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:42 pm

Are you replacing the Front LCAs or doing work to them?

Taking them out and putting them back in should take no more than about 2 hours. What ever work needs to be done to them (if any) should be added to that.

If you have stuts and springs, zip tie them up (zip ties work really well in this situation). Passenger side you'll need to remove the lower engine mount.

- When I slotted my struts I ended up slotting about 6mm to get 4.5* of motion (that was for my fubar knuckles). So you'll probably need to take a little more than 2mm to about 1* of motion.

OB · Post by OB » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:57 pm

hansken_yo wrote:Are you replacing the Front LCAs or doing work to them?

Taking them out and putting them back in should take no more than about 2 hours. What ever work needs to be done to them (if any) should be added to that.

If you have stuts and springs, zip tie them up (zip ties work really well in this situation). Passenger side you'll need to remove the lower engine mount.

- When I slotted my struts I ended up slotting about 6mm to get 4.5* of motion (that was for my fubar knuckles). So you'll probably need to take a little more than 2mm to about 1* of motion.

I'm installing a full Prothane bushing kit. I figure 2 hours to get both out, another 2 hours taking them to work and pressing out/in the bushings, then another 2 hours going back together.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:16 pm

I'd burn the LCAs out it so much easier. The prothanes are 2 piece so they just sort of slide in you shouldnt need a press for any of it except maybe the rear control arms.

As for the lateral/rear control arm adjustment I dont think they have any other then the mounts on the bulkhead might be eccentric

hansken_yo · Post by **hansken_yo** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:15 pm

bone-yard-racing wrote:I'd burn the LCAs out it so much easier. The prothanes are 2 piece so they just sort of slide in you shouldnt need a press for any of it except maybe the rear control arms.

Burning out is much more fun too

Oh, and installation of the Prothane LCA kit is super easy. The only real trick is using a crow bar to bend down the lip of the K frame where the vertical bushing slides in.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:40 pm

Okay I just did my other vertical LCA and it did need a bit of pressing but nothing that my $30 harbor freight 1 ton couldnt handle

OB · Post by OB » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:18 am

So the lateral arms require a press as well? How about the strut rod bushings, any tips on those? I did all the sway bushings and endlinks last night, so now the big stuff is all that I have left to do.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:56 pm

^ Im still doing front stuff. Ill let you know on the rear when I do them.