MY starterS will not engage :@:@:@

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:52 pm

im having same problem... well sort of. i have a black key, basic model neon, no power options or nothing. yes its a 2000. but what is happening is my starter is not engaging. i took a starter out of my parts car (YES IT WORKS I TESTED IT) but still not engaging. all my car does is whirl whirl whirl... car will start if i jump-start it but not always able to do that. teeth on both the starter motor and flywheel are fine. i have a feeling it has to do with the wire that plugs in that little black socket. anyone have any idea on whats wrong? heres a link to my thread on another forum, but feel free to post answers, tips, comments, questions on this thread or PM me as i'll check in and see what is said.

http://forum.neoncanada.com/index.php?showtopic=68077

Thanks.

Adam

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:46 pm

When you bench tested the starter did the gear extend out when it motored?
The small connector engages the solenoid that turns on the motor, so it is safe to assume that the relay and the solenoid are working.

It may just need some lube on the gear slide so it comes out when the starter motor turns. I don't think the starters use the old school method where the solenoid also engages the gear.

The only other thing I can think of is your timing belt broke, and it is freewheeling due to no compression. You would have a CEL if that was the case.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:41 pm

if my timing belt broke, woudn't the engine not run? it runs perfectly fine when i jump start the car. also what is a "CEL". thanks for the advice. and no i didnt check to see if it was coming out. i tested it in my parts car in which would turn over fine, it just became a parts car due to needing lots of other work.

Adam

Swordfish2Cowboy · Post by **Swordfish2Cowboy** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:39 am

00Neon RCR wrote:if my timing belt broke, woudn't the engine not run? it runs perfectly fine when i jump start the car. also what is a "CEL". thanks for the advice. and no i didnt check to see if it was coming out. i tested it in my parts car in which would turn over fine, it just became a parts car due to needing lots of other work.

Adam

CEL = Check Engine Light

And yes, if your timing belt broke, your car wouldn't run.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:41 am

CEL = check engine light
Check the voltage at the starter lower lug (the one that goes into the motor) while cranking. If it is signifigantly lower than the voltage at the battery while cranking, there is a bad connection somewhere, or the starter isn't grounded well somehow. I can't think of any other reason why it will work well in the other car, and not work in this one. Are you also using the same battery between cars? Also check all the ground cables. IDK if it matters, but are they also the same type of transmission?

01neon01 · Post by **01neon01** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:20 am

does your radio power up when you turn they key back?

this sounds like what was happening to my 01 neon a few weeks ago. i couldnt figure it out till i checked the battery cables. the terminal on them were corroded real badly. you might want to check the undersides of them if you havent already.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:15 am

01neon01 wrote:does your radio power up when you turn they key back?

this sounds like what was happening to my 01 neon a few weeks ago. i couldnt figure it out till i checked the battery cables. the terminal on them were corroded real badly. you might want to check the undersides of them if you havent already.

corrosion is there.. maybe should clean them up a little better, i guess not taking any the battery cables from the battery while changing starters prevented me from doing this. but yes the radio and all all works fine. also to the other guy that asked if they are same transmissions. yes they are. anyways try the cleaning of the terminals in the morning. thanks for the advice. any other suggestions please share. but i still don't know why a bad ground would prevent it from engaging... but who knows... anythings possible in this world

Adam

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:00 pm

A bad ground is the same as a bad (+) connection, either way it won't allow full voltage/amperage to the starter. It is like trying to get the starter to turn with it wired in the system, but lying on the pavement. It won't do anything till you run a jumper between the battery (-) post, and the starter body. Just not that extreme. But you get the idea.

catch00neon · Post by **catch00neon** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:56 pm

Well do everything you can to make sure what the source of the problem is. When my car did not want to start, I check everything and my lights inside and out worked.... so i changed the computer and bought a new one for $230 and nothin!!! Would not start! I kicked down and took it to my local dealer and they checked it and fixed my problem for $200 and it was just my sentry key giving me some crazy problem! So, what i'm tryin to say is that the big bad dealer is not always a bad route go if you cant possibly figure it out your self, but again only use as a last resort.

OB · Post by OB » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:18 pm

Weak battery? Fuel/ign issue? Could be a lot of things.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:01 am

i dont think you guys are realizing that.. the car still starts if i jump start it by pushing it down a hill and popping the clutch.. just not with the key. the starter is not engaging... does anyone know how the starter works.. like theres obviously something that causes the gear to push out and spin the flywheel.. one of the wires? like i know the starter i just put on it works cuz i took it out of a parts car THAT I JUST TOOK OFF THE ROAD, ALSO TESTED IT BEFORE CHANGING. the starter motor works itself, just not whatever causes it to engage.. my guess is that lil wire that has the plug on it that goes into the little socket on the motor.. does anyone know what that does? also its not a sentry key or anything like that, because my car does not use a sentry key. its just a base model neon. no power options or nothing. keep the tips/advice coming. appreciate it.

Adam

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:32 pm

occasional demons wrote:
The small connector engages the solenoid that turns on the motor, so it is safe to assume that the relay and the solenoid are working.

Like I said, the small connector is just the trigger for the solenoid, it is basically a heavy duty relay. The relay in your PDC wouldn't be able to handle the amps that it takes to turn the starter motor.
The FSM gives no info on how it pushes the gear out looking at it it may use the solenoid to push it out.
Try swapping the horn or fuel pump relay to see if it cranks better. Possibly the contacts are burn't in the starter relay, not letting enough voltage through to fully engage the solenoid.
And pushing it down a hill is not jump starting it. Jump starting is hooking cables to another battery, and using the key to start the engine. If it isn't engaging the flywheel by using jumper cables there is a prblem with the starting circuit/starter somewhere.

OB · Post by OB » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:18 pm

occasional demons wrote:
occasional demons wrote:
The small connector engages the solenoid that turns on the motor, so it is safe to assume that the relay and the solenoid are working.

The FSM gives no info on how it pushes the gear out looking at it it may use the solenoid to push it out.

That's the starter solenoid's sole purpose, so I would assume that's what it does...

OP- Does the starter turn over at all? Does the relay energize ("click")? Is the starter freewheeling? If the solenoid is not contacting the flywheel but the starter motor itself is turning, i'd say the solenoid is bad (aka replace starter). Apply 12v to the solenoid on the bench. If it doesn't move the gear, it's bad. If it does, then it may have been stuck, or you might have a bad starter relay or wiring.

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:46 pm

OB wrote:
occasional demons wrote:
occasional demons wrote:
The small connector engages the solenoid that turns on the motor, so it is safe to assume that the relay and the solenoid are working.

The FSM gives no info on how it pushes the gear out looking at it it may use the solenoid to push it out.

That's the starter solenoid's sole purpose, so I would assume that's what it does...

Um, no the solenoid also switches voltage to the starter motor. Some starters use the rotating force to push the gear out, and when the key is released the gear retracts.

Edit:

00Neon RCR wrote: but what is happening is my starter is not engaging. all my car does is whirl whirl whirl...

Edit II: Another possibility is the overrun clutch in the gear mechanism has failed. Yes it worked in the other car, but that doesn't prove anything other than it worked then. I've ran into that more than once.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:35 pm

alright, so yes the starter spins freely... and no it cant be stuck.. i tested it on my other car before i took it out (already swapped starters and they both have same problem).. just like some other people are saying i believe its a wiring problem.. what wires should i check.. theres only 3... its obviously getting power... but like some people said.. maybe not FULL power to push the gear out... the flywheel is fine.. so its not that... all the teeth are there. or is there another way that the flywheel could be "effed up"????

Adam

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:36 pm

Jumping pins 25 and 26 in the PDC will engage the starter. (bypasses relay obviously, as it needs to be removed for this.) This is basically eliminating the ign. switch/starter relay from the check list. Just make sure transmission is in N or P and brake is set before doing this! Connector C102 is the small plug on the starter. The rest is pretty obvious. There isn't too much to check, other than the voltages at the starter/cables. If everything is the same voltage as the battery while cranking, (May need two meters/helper) then the starter is the only thing that can be bad.
other than this, I really don't know what else to tell you. Don't think a parts store will let you return a starter....

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:54 pm

thanks for the pics.. seen that in my haynes manual.. but with your explanations... im going try that tomorrow.. now one more thing. the little gear does it spin out by the speed of the starter (like gravity) or is there some sort of thing that pushes it out like a "switch" mechanism. thats all i ask.

Adam

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:34 pm

From the looks of the starter it is most likely pushed out by the solenoid. (The coils 1 and 2 in the starter pic in the diagram.)

IIRC there are 3 screws that hold the solenoid coil on. If you can get those loose with out stripping the heads, you should be able to pull it out a little. If it does kick the gear forward you should be able to tell if it is attached to the linkage. I'll bet it is. I haven't had a neon starter apart, so I can't really give a definate answer.
It can't be the flex plate or flywheel loose, because you wouldn't be able to push start it. The flyweel would spin, but not the engine.

I just can't see the ring gear spinning around loose either.

danman132x wrote:First view of the flexplate after removing tranny

.

OB · Post by OB » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:32 am

Interestingly enough, I can't find the info in the FSM about starter gear operation. It does indeed say that the solenoid is used as a relay to jump amperage to the high side of the motor. So I retract my previous statement. Looks like the solenoid does in fact have two purposes.

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:48 am

It's all good.

I've just seen a few different methods of engaging the gear, and the neon starter looked pretty tight, but I think it still uses the solenoid. I always take broken stuff apart to see what makes it tick. Learned more that way than any other method.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:04 pm

so its most likely an amperage problem? like my car is not sending enough power to the solenoid to engage the starter gear, but sending enough to spin the motor itself... what would cause this? steps to fixing it.. how long to fix it?

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:30 pm

If it is an electrical problem, the most likely source is usually the cable from the battery to the starter, but that wouldn't help the solenoid any, as it gets it's power through the starter relay circuit. Coil one is the pull in coil. Once the solenoid switch is pulled in the ground is disconnected by the positvive volts now on both sides of the coil. (since the #1 coil grounds through the starter motor) The hold in coil is then the remaining coil holding the gear to the flywheel. (see the internal starter wiring and you'll understand) The most you can do is check the resistance of the wire to the small connector to pin 26. Then C103 to pin 25. And if something is bad either replace the connectors, or rewire the whole circuit. And the ground cables as I previously mentioned. Just for shits and grins, try tapping the starter while someone cranks it, or loosen it and wiggle it. Maybe there is something preventing it from fully extending.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:51 pm

alright... sooo bench tested BOTH starters tonight.. did what the haynes manual said to do. take a cable from ground on battery and hold it to the side of the starter motor and take a positive from the battery and touch the terminals on the solenoid. well i did that ON BOTH and gues what? starter spun smoothly BUT the little gear did not spin/pop out... now what ticks me off the most, is the fact that the starter i was replacing the original worth... well is part of those two. did i test it right? because that starter was working fine when i took it out. didnt drop it or anything. THIS REALLY SUCKS

Adam

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:45 pm

oh thought id add this.. did the "key dance" and i was tossed 2 codes.. one is most likely my battery light.. replaced the alternator 3 times and it never ever did disappear... drove it for months on in with no problems... and the other one is well maybe my problem to the "bad starters"

codes are

P1684
P1193

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:11 pm

You have to touch 12V to the little connector to get the solenoid to push the gear out. A small jumper with alligator clips should work best. Just clip one end to the connector blade, and touch the other to the jumper for the large lugs. Just put the main (+) jumper on the top lug that the battery wire normally hooks to. then when you jump the small wire to the main one the starter should move the gear out and motor.

P01193 Inlet Air Temp. Voltage High Inlet Air Temp. sensor input above acceptable voltage

viewtopic.php?t=365

AIT sensor prolly going bad. There is a fairly new thread on that, too.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:15 pm

p1684 = battery been disconnected since last 50 starts. and p1193 = intake manifold/temperature sensor...

so clearly these codes do not help me with my problem.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:55 am

well isn't this embarassing... finally found out why they were not engaging.. its because the little brown wire that plugs into the starter (ignition wire) was bad... either in the ignition or along the wire somewheres. SO what i am currently doing is waiting til tonight to go in and get a push button switch and going to wire it to that. thanks for all the tips/advice etc etc. appreciated it.

Adam

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:51 am

so i lied... i hooked up that little brown wire and would not start. same sound... now it makes sense that it does that because that brown wire is the ign wire and when i turned the key before it made that sound.... duh... does anyone have any idea... the starters ARE engaging.. i tested them. HELP!!!

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:51 am

Take the one that is out, and remove the aluminum end that houses the gear. Put some pliers on the gear, and make sure it is holding in one direction, and freewheeling in the other. My PC at home is down, so I can't log in a lot to help.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:49 pm

if i did is what you meant than yes its working like you described. be able to turn it one way and not the other when engaged? thats what i did.