Audio n00b...

CAMS_02 · Post by **CAMS_02** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:23 pm

I used to be one of those guys that thought loud equaled good, now I'm at a point in my life where I feel quality is far better than quantity. With that being said (and assuming that makes any sense in this context), I'm ready to upgrade my stock stereo and have a few questions for y'all (if you don't mind):

1) I always thought you wanted your amp or head unit's RMS power output to match your speaker's RMS as closely as possible. My buddy (who's way more of an audiophile than I am), said I should get the highest rated speakers I can afford, regardless of my head unit's output wattage. Who's right?

2) If my door speakers are rated at say, 60 watts, RMS - is it going to be a problem if my 6x9s are rated at say, 100? Using those same numbers, what about a pair of dash speakers rated at say, 40 watts, RMS?

With all that being said, I'm looking at a JVC KD-AR8500 (35 watts x 4, RMS), a pair of Kicker KS693 6x9s (100 watts, RMS), a pair of Kicker KS65 6.75s (65 watts, RMS) and a pair of Kicker KS350 3.5s (20 watts, RMS). Any problems with that setup? Based on my above questions, would I be better off with a "bigger" set of dash speakers (50 or 100 watts, RMS)?

I'm looking at these items on sonicelectronix.com. I do not want to mess with an amp at this time, which is one of the reasons I chose one of the highest rated head units they offer.

Thanks, gang.

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:54 pm

I'm no expert, but I don't think you will have a problem mixing the wattage rating. As long as the resistance (4 ohm/8 ohm speakers) is the same. I still have the oem rear speakers, Kenwoods in the doors and I removed the dash speakers and swapped those little tweeters in. The kind that are about the size of a silver dollar. IMHO it sounds very nice. I have a pioneeer DEH 6500 (?) HU, IIRC it is 45 watts x 4. The range is impressive to me, good highs, and bass. The tweeters will take more abuse, as they don't have a lot of travel like a woofer. I think the ones I got might be luck to be 20 watts, and I haven't had a problem with them. You just need to fab a mount for them. Sheet metal, and tin snips work well. just trace out he shape of the oem speakers and cut. then mount the tweeters into the metal. I think I put some silicone around them to reduce any vibrations.

glasjaw · Post by **glasjaw** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:17 pm

I think generally speaking the higher the power rating of the speaker, the better they are. But theres plenty of door speakers and subwoofers that have low rms ratings and are still as good, if not better than others with higher ratings.

For doors i would say 75-100rms is the norm for good speakers, and if ur aimed towards sound quality, 300-700rms per sub.

It really all depends on the quality of the speaker itself, more than the rms. My Icon is ~1000-1300 rms and it sounds amazing while still getting pretty damn loud. Sound quality for woofers is 50% speaker, 50% enclosure.

Look around audio forums and you'll get alot of info on whats good and whats not. Check out RE (reaudio.com), Fi (ficaraudio.com), SSA (soundsolutionsaudio.com), Focal, Rainbow....theres so many good manufacturers out there.

jetas · Post by **jetas** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:52 am

If youre not going to run an amp your not going to hear the full potential of the speaker(s). THe RMS from the HU is always fairly low. If you want quality pretty much everything you buy needs to be good. IMO JVC wouldnt be good for SQ. Im running a Pioneer 6900iB and i love it but at some point i will change it out to an Alpine. to me those 2 are the best HU's for sound.

Its ok to mix RMS. for the front speakers i would say get components as the sound seems crisper because the woofer and tweeter are seperate but linked by a crossover.

what is your budget?

nineball · Post by **nineball** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:08 am

almost every line of equipment has good and bad. i am running a jvc kd-sh1000 and i would stack it up against any consumer head unit on the market for sq, including an alpine 9887 or a pioneer 800/880. in the past year i had an alpine ida-x001 and an ida-x100 w/ the imprint / processor kit and neither one sounded as good as my jvc, so i went back to it.

from what you posted i would forget the 3.5" for the dash and spend that cash on a better set of door speakers. components usually provide the best sound (6.5" midbass, .75-1" tweeter) but they require more power to get the most out of them. a decent coax speaker will sound better than the stock as well.

your friend is on the right path. you do want to buy the best available products you can, but you want your amplifier to be at least equal if not more powerful than the speakers. if a speaker is rated at 60rms and you only give t 20-30 it's sort of like never getting out of 3rd gear - you are limited in what you will achieve for a final result.

the choices you listed are fine, but they would be much better if you had a 4 channel amp to drive them. again, lose the dash speakers and invest more in your front speakers. think about a concert - they have the speakers in front of you, not behind you. the front stage of your sound system is much more important than the rear.

remember, you can always turn the gain down more and still have decent sound, turning it up too much can cause clipping which is not good. based on your selections a nice 4x75 amp would do you just fine for front and rear.

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:10 pm

I kinda like my tweeters in the dash, but it goes more toward the component end of it. You can place component parts in different locations due to the smaller size, to adjust where the sound is comming from. The location has a huge effect on sound. I am so glad they had the brains to put speakers in the rear deck, instead of the rear doors, like nissan did. My freind has a nissan and it sounds like ass.

CAMS_02 · Post by **CAMS_02** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:41 pm

Well, I only wanted to spend a couple hundred bucks, but everything I mentioned above came to about $400, which is alright, I guess. I have other things I want to buy and other responsibilities to pay for (kids, wife, house, car payment, cycle upkeep, a summer cycle trip, etc.) and once the warm weather hits, I'll probably only drive this car occasionally through the spring, summer and autumn months. Like I said, I don't want to get too nuts here, because a big, boomin' car stereo isn't high on my list anymore, but I recently blew up my passenger door speaker and I've wanted something to play my .mp3s on, so I figured for a couple hundred bucks, I could get something that's significantly better than the ol' stocker (which to me, sounds pretty damn good - aside from the blown door speaker).

Keep comin' with the ideas and I'll keep lookin'. Thanks for all the help so far!

BTW, that JVC is an older head unit (released in 2005, I believe), but the reviews I've read on it all over the 'net have been very, very positive - 35 watts (RMS), 3 RCA outs in the rear (front, rear and sub), a 9 band EQ built in (plus 3 band parametric), it plays .mp3 and wma files and accepts SD cards as well (up to 512 mb), so at about 4 dollars a piece, for around 12 bucks, I can get every song on my computer in there. It sounds like if I do go with that HU, I'll want to decrease the wattage of my speakers though...

nineball · Post by **nineball** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:47 pm

if you are not going to run an amp then the rca outs are useless. 35rms is not a lot really but i suppose it can do depending on the speakers you buy.

since you are only going to use hu power forget about the 3.5". you would have to wire the 3.5" and the door speakers together which would only give you the option of making it a total ohm load of 8 as the hu can't support a 2ohm load. that would cut your power in half, and then in half again between the 2 speakers. stick with just door and rear and save a little cash.

DoubtedNeon · Post by **DoubtedNeon** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:57 pm

Your headunit puts out a certain amount of power per channel. for example I have one that is 50x4 which means its putting out 50 watts per channel. (4 speakers). Tweeters however are incredibly efficient and can be linked into that without needing their own channel. as far as watts go. and RMS that doesnt really mean its better. Theres Rockford fosgate subs out there with lower wattages than my type R's but they are pumping out just as much sound.

If your going to amp your 6x9's then by all means go out and spend a whole bunch of cash on nice ones. but if your not going to then it doesnt pay to go above 60 watts RMS.

It doesnt matter if your RMS is different on any of your speakers, however the different ohm rating each speaker has on it will determine (if you amp it) what your wiring diagram is going to look like.

DONT WIRE YOUR AMP TO SPEAKERS UNLESS YOU KNOW YOUR DIAGRAM SETUP.

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:26 pm

Get the HU, door speakers, and go from there. Then if you want better sound, replace the rear speakers. If you were happy with it as it was befor the door speaker crapped out, then this should suit you. The door speaker being blown was why I replaced my mine. A nice set of door speakers will improve the sound a lot. I haven't replaced my rears, mainly because they still sound good with the rest of my speakers. I have no amp, so I really don't see the need.
Like you said, it wil be a seasonal car, so why have a nice system in "storage" for half the year.
BTW, I think I spent about $20 on the tweeters, so no big expense there.
If you already have the dash speakers, they are wired to the door speakers anyways. IIRC the dash speakers were only available on the "higher grade" neons after '01, or '02.

nineball · Post by **nineball** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:42 pm

in systems that have the door and dash speakers they are both 2ohm speakers wired together for a final ohm load of 4, which the radio's internal amp can handle. if you just replace the door speaker it will be with a 4ohm speaker which would mean your total ohm load would be either 3ohm or 6ohm. 3ohm will be too much for the internal amp to handle and 6ohm will cut your total power output.

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:34 pm

"shrugs" All I know is I have no troubles using aftermarket door speakers with the aftermarket tweeters. Like I said I'm no expert.

I just didn't see the point of 3.5" speakers that get drowned out by the door speakers. (like you recommend) The tweeters just give the music a cleaner sound. Maybe I just got lucky with my choices.

jetas · Post by **jetas** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:42 am

Get some JL coaxials. And some 3 way 6x9s.

CAMS_02 · Post by **CAMS_02** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:30 pm

nineball wrote:in systems that have the door and dash speakers they are both 2ohm speakers wired together for a final ohm load of 4, which the radio's internal amp can handle. if you just replace the door speaker it will be with a 4ohm speaker which would mean your total ohm load would be either 3ohm or 6ohm. 3ohm will be too much for the internal amp to handle and 6ohm will cut your total power output.

So, the door and dash speakers are 2 ohms each? I was told (in another thread) they were 8 ohms each. If they're both 2, I have to either replace both door speakers and both dash speakers with a 2-ohm speaker or replace the door speakers with a 4-ohm and disconnect the dash speakers altogether. Boy, this is confusin'!

Caraudioholic24 · Post by **Caraudioholic24** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:15 am

To help out it really doesnt matter what wattage the radio is. If you dont plan on adding subs then you could put any cheapo speaker in there with a rating of 35 watts rms or higher. Now if you plan on going SQ I suggest the cheapest way out is to get ahold of a 5 or 6 channel amp. Use that as you foundation for your system. Then decide which speakers you want and what radio you like. I deal with Alpine mostly and love their head units. You wanna get a deck that has 3 pre-outtputs Front Rear Sub. As for speakers I would suggest a nice set of components (jl audio C5) front anr rear. (ditch the 6x9's). Then add a small sub or a couple of big ones which ever you prefer and whalla. You have a beautiful setup that will last you years of enjoyment. Any ?'s let me know or PM me.

Jeremy M · Post by **Jeremy M** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:20 pm

if you do not want to run an amp...look for speakers....preferably components that have a high efficiency rating that way u can get alot of sound out of them from very little power. Focusing on the front portion of the car use all your budget on a good set of comps up front, keeping the stock 6x9's for rear fill. Also consider getting deadener for the front doors...you'll be glad u did it all at the same time. Who knows...after u deaden your doors upfront u may not need a sub.

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:59 pm

CAMS_02 wrote:
nineball wrote:in systems that have the door and dash speakers they are both 2ohm speakers wired together for a final ohm load of 4, which the radio's internal amp can handle. if you just replace the door speaker it will be with a 4ohm speaker which would mean your total ohm load would be either 3ohm or 6ohm. 3ohm will be too much for the internal amp to handle and 6ohm will cut your total power output.
So, the door and dash speakers are 2 ohms each? I was told (in another thread) they were 8 ohms each. If they're both 2, I have to either replace both door speakers and both dash speakers with a 2-ohm speaker or replace the door speakers with a 4-ohm and disconnect the dash speakers altogether. Boy, this is confusin'!

I just measured the oem dash speaker, and it is 5 ohms. Go figure. There is a cap on the speaker so that may figure into the equation. IDK what the doors are as they are long gone.

DoubtedNeon · Post by **DoubtedNeon** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:20 pm

rockfordfosagate.com has a wiring diagram for this stuff

Caraudioholic24 · Post by **Caraudioholic24** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:11 am

Yes the cap will throw your readings off and also having it hooked up to the radio can throw it off as well

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:41 pm

The 5 ohms is at the speaker leads. At the connector leads, the ohms are infinite. The cap must be there to compensate for the difference. Yes the speaker works, even if logic tells you an open circuit shouldn't.
And the oem dash speaker is really about an inch and a half in diameter. Just an FYI. The braket it mounts in may be 3.5"

Caraudioholic24 · Post by **Caraudioholic24** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:53 pm

yea the cap may be throwing the numbers off