car not starting

vielecustoms · Post by **vielecustoms** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:35 pm

yeah another one

I have a 02 sxt, It acts like I'm trying to it start without the clutch pushed in.. everything lights up, dings and acts like normal. than nothing, no clicking, nothing.

I messed with the battery terminals, checked the grounds, switched keys to see if the sensor in the key was messed up and tried jump starting it. nothing.. my mom came down and helped me pop start it while I pushed (redneck moms

) fired right up, drove home no problems. I did the key dance to see if any codes come up and the only thing there was that the battery was disconnected. (it was about a week ago)

any ideas... or should I just make sure to park on steep hills from now on?

another question, I'm thinking it could be the starter or wiring. if it is the starter would the starter off a 96 sohc 5spd work? I got a new one on that pos.

thanks for any help.

excon · Post by **excon** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:13 pm

starter.

The starter is what clicks when you try and start your car with a dead battery. If there's no clicking, there's something wrong with the starter.

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:31 pm

Pull the cover from the PDC under the hood.

Have someone turn the key attempting to crank the engine.

The cover will tell you which is the starter relay.

See if you can hear it clicking, or just swap it with the horn relay (assuming the horn works). If it is clicking, with either relay, then the starter is prolly the next step.

If neither click, then there is prolly a problem with the ign switch circuit.

vielecustoms · Post by **vielecustoms** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:22 am

I did that. the relay was good clicks when turning the key.
so I guess I'm swapping starters today

Post by **jonnymopar** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:32 am

It's right up front, so it's really no sweat changing them.

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:39 am

If you have a test light, just verify voltage at the small wire to the solenoid before beginning to remove the starter, The relay coil may be good, but the contacts may not. But swapping with the horn relay would almost guaranty that would be ruled out.

gilly02le · Post by **gilly02le** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:36 am

check that the clutch safety switch is still in place on the clutch pedal bracket, and that it's getting depressed when you push the clutch pedal in.

lilnicko11 · Post by **lilnicko11** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:02 am

^ with all the above tom. Im not far away. ill come give ya a push down the hill. haha. hope u figure it out bro!!!!

Danteneon · Post by **Danteneon** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:01 pm

Another thing to check is the fusible link leading to the starter. If the amp draw was too high, it will burn through that link.

If so, make sure to replace it with another fusible link, not regular wire!

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:11 pm

gilly02le wrote:check that the clutch safety switch is still in place on the clutch pedal bracket, and that it's getting depressed when you push the clutch pedal in.

The starter relay coil is functioning, so the clutch interlock is working.

Danteneon wrote:Another thing to check is the fusible link leading to the starter. If the amp draw was too high, it will burn through that link.

If so, make sure to replace it with another fusible link, not regular wire!

The fusible link is between the starter and alternator. It would prolly fry under the load of the starter.

Danteneon · Post by **Danteneon** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:57 pm

The fusible link is there to make sure neither component pulls to much current. If the starter goes bad with say a internal short, it can draw pretty high amperage.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:44 am

Now see, you had to go and make me dig through the damn Photobucket!

The fusible link only protects the alternator. The starter can draw 200 amps without breaking a sweat. A fusible link would never hold up.

Danteneon · Post by **Danteneon** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:33 am

Now I know what the problem is...we just did a starter in a 95 Neon and the fusible link is attached to the starter. In second gens, it is located before the PDC

This is the 1st gen info...

CHARGING SYSTEM
The charging system is an integral part of the battery and starter systems. Since all of these systems work together, any diagnosis and testing should be done in conjunction.

The charging system is protected by a 12 gauge fusible link located in the A11 circuit. This fusible link is between the generator and the starter.

The generator ground is provided through a case ground in the generator to its attaching bracket. This generator uses a voltage regulator internal to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

When the vehicle is running, battery voltage is applied to the generator field terminal through the A142 circuit. This circuit is the output from the contact side of the Automatic Shut Down (ASD) relay. The ground, or voltage regulated side, of the generator field is controlled by the K20 circuit which connects to cavity 4 of the PCM connector.

When there is current present in the field, and the rotor is turning, the stator in the generator produces a B+ voltage that is supplied to the battery through the A11 and A0 circuits. The A11 circuit is connected to the output terminal of the generator and connects to the engine starter motor battery feed terminal. The A0 circuit is a direct feed line from the battery and connects to the engine starter motor.

Grounding for the system is accomplished at the battery negative terminal. These grounds connect to the engine and body.

And the 2nd gen...

All of the current from the generator cable connection goes to the battery through a 140 ampere fusible link that is secured with a nut to the positive battery cable terminal. The PDC houses up to ten cartridge fuses, which replace all in-line fusible links. The PDC also houses up to twelve mini fuses (blade-type), up to three full International Standards Organization (ISO) relays, and up to eight mini International Standards Organization (ISO) relays. Internal connection of all the PDC circuits is accomplished by an intricate network of hard wiring and bus bars. For complete circuit diagrams, refer to the appropriate wiring information. The wiring information includes wiring diagrams, proper wire and connector repair procedures, details of wire harness routing and retention, connector pin-out information and location views for the various wire harness connectors, splices and grounds.

Got my gens confused

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:09 am

Danteneon wrote:Now I know what the problem is...we just did a starter in a 95 Neon and the fusible link is attached to the starter. In second gens, it is located before the PDC

This is the 1st gen info...
CHARGING SYSTEM
The charging system is an integral part of the battery and starter systems. Since all of these systems work together, any diagnosis and testing should be done in conjunction.

The charging system is protected by a 12 gauge fusible link located in the A11 circuit. This fusible link is between the generator and the starter.
The generator ground is provided through a case ground in the generator to its attaching bracket. This generator uses a voltage regulator internal to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

When the vehicle is running, battery voltage is applied to the generator field terminal through the A142 circuit. This circuit is the output from the contact side of the Automatic Shut Down (ASD) relay. The ground, or voltage regulated side, of the generator field is controlled by the K20 circuit which connects to cavity 4 of the PCM connector.

When there is current present in the field, and the rotor is turning, the stator in the generator produces a B+ voltage that is supplied to the battery through the A11 and A0 circuits. The A11 circuit is connected to the output terminal of the generator and connects to the engine starter motor battery feed terminal. The A0 circuit is a direct feed line from the battery and connects to the engine starter motor.
Grounding for the system is accomplished at the battery negative terminal. These grounds connect to the engine and body.
And the 2nd gen...
All of the current from the generator cable connection goes to the battery through a 140 ampere fusible link that is secured with a nut to the positive battery cable terminal. The PDC houses up to ten cartridge fuses, which replace all in-line fusible links. The PDC also houses up to twelve mini fuses (blade-type), up to three full International Standards Organization (ISO) relays, and up to eight mini International Standards Organization (ISO) relays. Internal connection of all the PDC circuits is accomplished by an intricate network of hard wiring and bus bars. For complete circuit diagrams, refer to the appropriate wiring information. The wiring information includes wiring diagrams, proper wire and connector repair procedures, details of wire harness routing and retention, connector pin-out information and location views for the various wire harness connectors, splices and grounds.
Got my gens confused

Nope it is the same for both. The red wire that goes from the battery to the starter teminal feeds the fused circuit to the alternator.

If you pull a 1gn schematic, I'd bet it would be similiar to the 2gn as far as the battery/starter/fusible link/alternator path goes.

There is just no feasible way to put a fuse into the starter/battery cable. It would be so big, the internal wiring of the starter will fry anyways. The solenoid contacts are basically the fuse.

Danteneon · Post by **Danteneon** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:33 am

Ah, now I see where the mis-communication is coming from.

It isn't the main battery feed that is fused, it's the solenoid power wire. In his case the starter had failed internally and it started to burn through the fusible link going to the solenoid, not the battery feed.

Jenni · Post by **Jenni** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:14 pm

Have you checked the batterie? Not only the voltage - let the garage check the batteries current and capacity. Maybe the batterie is to weak / to old and you need a new one.

vielecustoms · Post by **vielecustoms** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:00 pm

lilnicko11 wrote:^ with all the above tom. Im not far away. ill come give ya a push down the hill. haha. hope u figure it out bro!!!!

yeah it just means I'm crusin in my fathers old land cruser 0 - 60 in about 2 minutes and 10 mpg doing it!

but I did a few more things today. the battery is good I threw that on the load tester today. I had the starter tested, it was bad so I put a new one in. cleaned up the terminals and all the grounds on the engine and chassies that I could get to, I tested the clutch switch, that seems to be working. but still not starting.

Thanks for the diagram, I will look closely at that.

any other ideas, I am going to drop it off at a guy in the next town over who is good with electronics next week if I have not got it going.

Passt · Post by **Passt** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:15 am

I'm STILL having the same problem with my 1998. I've been starting the car from a roll for over a month now. I have almost zero knowledge about wiring, so I haven't been able to test that part of it out yet. Jerry brought me a 2nd starter to test, and that didn't fix the problem. It came from a junkyard though ... so I'm not sure it was even good to begin with.

vielecustoms · Post by **vielecustoms** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:42 pm

just wondering if a flashing engine light means anything? it comes on stays lit, than blinks 10 times. than stays solid.

I'm dropping her off to Fat City Motors Monday. so hopefully it won't be there too long. (Friend of my father's very good with diagnosing electronics and has all the right equipment to do so)

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:19 pm

Well there is always the key dance.

Turn key to run position, but not to crank/start.

Key on, wait a second / key off /key on, wait a second / key off /key on, and you shouls get a code, or codes displayed on the odometer.

Then check the engine codes sticky, and/or post what's going on back here.

At least it might give you some insight of what to expect.

vielecustoms · Post by **vielecustoms** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:05 pm

all that comes up with that is the code for the battery being disconnected.

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:29 pm

Are you sure it isn't the round SKIM light that is flashing, instead of the CEL?

vielecustoms · Post by **vielecustoms** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:55 pm

it is the little orange engine symbol.

gilly02le · Post by **gilly02le** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:43 am

try swapping the horn and starter relay, see if that effects anything..

the relay can click like it's working, and still be bad.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:53 am

vielecustoms wrote:it is the little orange engine symbol.

just wanted to be sure.

A flashing CEL (at least my experience will not show a code on the odometer.

A scan gauge, or better prolly would give that info.

OK, we know the relay coil is working, because you said it clicks.
If it is clicking we know the PCM has not disabled the starter.

Have you checked for voltage at the starter solenoid wire connector?

Check for power at pin #25 at the starter relay socket also.
25 is the source switched to 26, which as the above diagram shows goes to the starter soleniod.
Now you could remove the relay and jumper the two and see if the starter cranks. (Be sure it is in park, or out of gear!) If there is power at the solenoid connector, and the battery to starter motor lug, then the starter is not grounded somehow, or toast.

patton98 · Post by **patton98** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:05 pm

the flashing engine light means u have a catalyst damaging misfire and u should shut the car down right away....possible cam sensor failure..or at least thatis what mine was

vielecustoms · Post by **vielecustoms** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:45 am

The car has never misfired, I have had very little problems until now. But I dropped her off this morning and the mechanic said he's give me a call today.

vielecustoms · Post by **vielecustoms** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:28 pm

was at the mechanic for a hour. ended up being a defect in the new starter. there was a small crack in the plug for the clutch safety. so after bringing her home and making a trip to advanced auto to swap starters. its finally running! I also took the opportunity to throw the stock air box back in with a k&n filter, since it has been raining quite a bit lately.

thanks for all the help! just glad to be running again.

Danteneon · Post by **Danteneon** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:04 am

Good deal

vielecustoms · Post by **vielecustoms** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:13 am

so after about 5 trips to Glens Falls, Hudson Falls, Fort Edward area (about 35 miles and 40 minutes one way) Ive burned thru 350 miles of gas and just about 5 hours just driving around in circles and almost a week of my car being down. for a defect in a new part most likely damaged by some idiot at the parts store or shipping company that tossed the parts around.