Intelligent Design Vs. Evolution?

Frizbe · Post by **Frizbe** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:02 pm

I am donig some research for a school paper (every week) and thought I would ask you here at 2GN.
What is everyone's opinion on this?
Thanks

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:35 pm

Tough question. I'll go ahead and say I believe in intelligent design, and I think it would be cool if it could be taught in school at some level, but I don't think it can. But, my vote it submitted with the premise that somehow it could successfully be taught. Who knows what would have to happen for that. And I only say that, because if I actually believe it, then I would obviously rather see what I think to be true being taught, opposed to what I don't believe. I definately believe in natural selection and some small evolutionary processes, but as a means of creation for the universe, our world and ourselves, no. Oh, and I won't argue with anyone on this, because I did too much of that in college, and it really doesn't get you anywhere. But good question linkin, good luck on the research.

Frizbe · Post by **Frizbe** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:44 pm

Thanks, yes I do belive that if you think evolution is right, obvioulsy you're going to want that to be taught, snd visa-versa. I hadn't thought of that.

SilverSRT05 · Post by **SilverSRT05** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:30 am

It all depends on how it is taught and how it is phrased. Wording has a lot to do with it my opinion. I would say to leave it in the church because it would be way t hard to word it correctly so that no one would be offended in the classroom.

dblsg · Post by **dblsg** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:36 am

technically, there both theories and i think they should both be tought in a school setting. keep in mind that the teacher/instructor would need to be open minded and not try to push one more than the other, they must be tought very objectively.... as theories.

r/tmike · Post by **r/tmike** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:00 pm

Even tough I believe in intelligent design. I believe facts are the only thing that should be tought. Anything other than a fact is a waste of time that could be spent teaching something else. Save the theory's for church.

But, introducing ALL religions in school as a class would be o.k. with me. Because it is a fact that these religions believe in what they believe, even tough the things they believe in may be theory. Just my 2 Cents.

Hey, as far as the different religions go. Somebody has to be wrong.

nodestiny · Post by **nodestiny** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:00 pm

O boy! This could get ugly...

One thing i must say (you may or may not agree with me on this) Is you cannot scientificly call Intelligent Design a theory. A theory is something that must be testable. Since we have a lack of any evidence that proves there is a creator, its a hypothosis.

Theory:
"the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one anothe"

Hypothesis:
"a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation" or "an unproved assumption"

Im not going to argue whether a creator exists or not, but just doing an FYI for the scientific community

fusion210 · Post by **fusion210** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:41 pm

I say keep the religious teaching out of public schools. Want to take the class in college? That's fine.
If you want to teach religion, you will have to include every religious idea from around the world, not just one.

CrashTeam · Post by **CrashTeam** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:01 pm

Well when you think about it, couldnt somone have intellegently desgined the process of evolution?

I think both aspects should be touched on, however maybe keep ID in a socialogy class and keep evolution in the biology class.

dinetuner · Post by **dinetuner** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:00 pm

evo is a more scientific and intelligent design is normaly with some sort of belief and i bielive school is mor about science then "bielief"

ilpadrino · Post by **ilpadrino** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:17 am

fusion210 wrote:I say keep the religious teaching out of public schools. Want to take the class in college? That's fine.
If you want to teach religion, you will have to include every religious idea from around the world, not just one.

Amen! (no pun intended

)

Evolution SHOULD be taught in public schools. Religious theories should be acknowledged but not taught. Remember, way back when it was written into the constitution and all that good stuff? Separation of church and state? Yeah, that's kinda big. Teachers shouldn't ignore religious theories altogether, but they should say things like, "There are many theories as to how man originated, including the various religious beliefs but Charles Darwin states..." That's it. If someone mentions just one point of one religion, someone is gonna get offended and want theirs discussed as well. I'm not saying one is right, as opposed to the other, but evolution should be taught (especially since this is most likely in a science class), while religious beliefs ONLY acknowledged.

I'm proud of myself that I've only written this much. A subject like this would normally warrant a page worth's

LCPLPunk · Post by **LCPLPunk** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:59 pm

Actually...seperation of church and state ISN'T in the Constitution.

Thomas Jefferson wrote it to a Baptist group..here it is, or at least a part of it..

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

Anyways, take that as you will, but please don't see it's Constitutionally guaranteed.

Ok, onto ID vs evolution...

From what I can tell, it's possible to have both coexisting. ID can still easily function with evolution and vica versa. I honestly don't believe it was all random chance that made everything, but I don't know how the Creator decided to do it all, that's something I'll find out after I die. (I hope.)

My wife bought a book (The Source) by some scientist and the guy lays out alot of reasons why evolution and ID can coexist. At first I thought the book was going to be a general attempt to make you believe in a Creator, but as i started reading i was floored by the scientific proof the guy had. I mean, he wasn't breaking it down into stuff easily understood, he was breaking it down as it was. And honestly, i don't know where I was going with that, but go pick up a copy, it's a good book regardless of whether you believe in ID or Evo. (and not Lancer Evos.

rOniN · Post by **rOniN** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:35 pm

I'm with CrashTeam...Evolution was IDed. That keeps everyone happy. It doesn't have to be that the Christian God did it, but any god the student wants to place in there.

kc2005ptgt · Post by **kc2005ptgt** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:55 pm

ilpadrino wrote:Remember, way back when it was written into the constitution and all that good stuff? Separation of church and state?

Reread your constitution - nowhere does it say separation of church and state. It says in the first amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Separation of church and state: This was a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, quoting the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, he writes: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
Also, James Madison the principal drafter of the Bill of Rights, often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state" (1819 letter to Walsh); "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States.", and he declared "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" (1811 letter to Baptist Churches).

Why teach just one theory and not another? A mention of it does not violate anything, but insetad could lead to less ignorance of where we get our ideals from and who said what and why. I bet before I posted any of the above, half of you didn't even know where the idea of "Separation of Church and State" came from.
By the way, I am a history major studying to be a teacher.

When I was in HS all they taught us was evolution. What they failed to teach is what it means. When I was in college getting my associates I had a philosophy class which taught both, and what the pros and cons againsts each.

I must say, being a Christian I can see the work of God in everything, and I know that this was no accident that we are here - but I do not fully accept ID as the basis for our creation.

I also am somewhat of a critical thinker (I like to believe!

) and can deffinately see evolution at work - in my own home even, with my fish and pigs. Although I do not fully agree with the theory and the possibility that we "came from monkey's". Too many holes in evolution to accept it as the basis for all of life and its origins.

So where do I stand? I think it is both that is at work in our world - noone can deny the existance of evolution and I just can not deny the existance of God and the work He has done in this world and its creation.

BOTH need to be taught in school, and as a future teacher I am a huge advocate for promoting critical thinking in students and giving both sides of an argument as well as teaching truth, not personal opinion. As a human I also realize that I have a tendency to be biased.

LCPLPunk · Post by **LCPLPunk** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:05 pm

I found a cool little chart in the 'Source' book that I thought you guys might like..

It is the Estimated Odds of Selected Variables Vital to an Earth-like Planet Occurring by Chance:

Being in the right kind of galaxy - 1 in 100
Being in the right place in the galaxy - 1 in 150
Having the right kind of star - 1 in 1,000
Being the right distance from the star - 1 in 10
Having the proper planetary mass - 1 in 10
Having the proper planetary spin - 1 in 10
Having the proper planetary tilt - 1 in 10
Having comet-sweeping planets - 1 in 40
Not being near a black hole - 1 in 250
Having a large solitary moon - 1 in 10
Possessing a magnetic field capable of shielding - 1 in 10

Total odds: 1 in 150,000,000,000,000,000

MoxHair · Post by **MoxHair** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:33 pm

I'm not going to get into a debate, but If I wanted to learn about religion Id go to church. Public School isnt the place for it...

LCPLPunk · Post by **LCPLPunk** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:37 pm

Why wouldn't u learn about religion in Public school? How can you justify ignoring something that has affected everything worldwide forever?

Midnight_Rider · Post by **Midnight_Rider** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:48 pm

moxhairr/t wrote:...If I wanted to learn about religion Id go to church. Public School isnt the place for it...

Ditto.

I graduated from high school in 1977. I don't ever remember evolution or anything resembling Creation or "intelligent design" being discussed during my entire school career so I must have missed something somewhere!

I believe that the Christian God is the Creator of all things but I think that "intelligent design" is a clever way of sneaking certain religious beliefs into the classroom where they don't belong. Evolution being in the curriculum is something that I don't like personally but I can see where it can be taught in a scientific setting (as a theory, NOT proven fact). The teaching of Creation (not watered-down "intelligent design") should be the responsibility of parents and/or the church in my humble opinion.

MoxHair · Post by **MoxHair** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:31 pm

LCPLPunk wrote:Why wouldn't u learn about religion in Public school? How can you justify ignoring something that has affected everything worldwide forever?

The affects of religion.. maybe. I've take a bunch of history classes and I know that certain wars were started by religion.. thats all I need to know.. I dont care what you believe, just as you shouldnt care that i dont believe in any sort of religion. We co-exist. I make my decisions based upon what I think it right and you do the same. When it comes to religion thats between you and your preist, pastor, parents, whatever. Not between a Teacher and a student. It's something you choose to do not something that is forced upon you.

LCPLPunk · Post by **LCPLPunk** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:28 pm

I agree with some of what u said...but other parts don't work.

Yes, wars have been started in the name of religion, but so what? Does that downplay all the good they have done?

Having too many beers has killed many people too, are we going to get rid of alcohol?

And how can you say u don't care what i believe? What's the point of talking to you then? If a person only talked to people of their own religion they would never see anyone elses viewpoints, and that's just crappy.

I mean, we are at war in Iraq and Afghan, wouldn't i want to know why? Why would extremist muslims take out 2 American buildings because of religious beliefs? Why would people turn the other cheek when assaulted?

There must be some mention of religion otherwise you deny history..

MoxHair · Post by **MoxHair** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:59 pm

you believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe. I really dont care about religion nor do I want to learn about it.

03sxt · Post by **03sxt** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:03 pm

Teach about the Evo!!

In all seriousness, though, I voted #1.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:17 pm

Evolution and Darwinisum FTW! But I'm a man of science. Prove it or loose it. Evolution/Darwinisum has been proven by many great minds.

Bottom line is that what we are living (im talking universe scope, not just world) is too amazing for it to be foolishly credited as just being, but also foolish to be credited as the creation of one thing (a creator). Im the kind of guy that always asks questions. If something created us, then what created that thing; and what created that, and so on. Science is for those who question. Life is something special. Thats why man created the term nature and evolution is simpily an observation of the natural, hence the term natural science. Religion is a faith, faith can not be observed. If someone wants to belive in something, then find; but do not teach it along side the natural sciences, that which can be observed.

LCPLPunk · Post by **LCPLPunk** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:00 pm

Actually..Evolution hasn't been proved, it's still a theory last time i checked. Good point on Science though, it is exactly what we observe.

In the end, no one will probably be able to prove either theory strong enough to make everyone believe, but it's fun to try.

I have put alot of thought into religion throughout my life, I was raised a Christian, not a hardcore Christian but one that thought objectively. Unfortunately, i went to middle and high school at a crazy Baptist school and that skewed my vision for a few years. I did 4 years in the Army and saw that people had different views on things, and the year in Iraq showed me there are people out there totally unlike the people I knew.
I have grappled with the idea that i'm just here and after I die that will be all. My wife has been going through a 'where will i go after I die, or will i go anywhere at all?' phase and so she has gotten me to look at things.
The way I see it now is I will believe in a Creator, not necessarily the Christian God, Muslim God, etc, but I know if i'm wrong and there isn't anything after that I won't know it anyways because i'll be returning to the earth..

On another note, i do feel that alot of religious teachings (namely Christ's because i know his better than the others) are great moral guides, and why wouldn't people want them in their lives even if the religion is wrong?

Take Christianity for example, I mean, who wouldn't want to love your neighbor, or forgive, or love, or blah, blah, blah...

That's another rant from me..

Oh, and mox, i don't believe you.

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:06 pm

LCPLPunk wrote:Actually..Evolution hasn't been proved, it's still a theory last time i checked. Good point on Science though, it is exactly what we observe.

There has been solid evidence gathered by such people as Darwin that indicates evolution of life. Evolution is not just that we came from monkeies (or whatever). it is that things (not just living thins, but all that is natural, which is everything) evolve. there is not one theory/fact (whatever) that can disprove that things evolve. evoloution is change. those who don't like evolution don't like change, IMO.

bige1030 · Post by **bige1030** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:08 pm

Intelligent design (ID) is not science at all. How, exactly, do we test the idea that we were designed by a designer? I really don't buy any of the indirect proofs offered thus far. The idea of them seems to be that the order of nature implies design. But yet, it is possible for order to come out of randomness naturally. A great example of this is the classical central limit theorem of probability theory (simply put: more data gets you closer to a bell curve under certain circumstances; more complicated explanation: the sum of iid random variables with finite mean and variance converges in distribution to a normal distribution).

Also, if the intelligent designer turns out to be the God of Chrisitanity, it would probably be bad to have ID be a subject of scientific inquiry. After all, if the ethical controversy over stem cell research wasn't enough, how about the even bigger one about testing God? If ID is really subject to scientific inquiry, scientists will want to test (a) whether a designer exists by direct means, and (b) the nature of the designer, if it exists. To test such things would be to put God to the test, which the Bible strictly forbids. Wouldn't it be best for religious people to believe in God on faith alone rather than subjecting Him to scientific inquiry and testing?

LCPLPunk · Post by **LCPLPunk** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:17 pm

03blackrt, i'm honestly not trying to disprove anything u just said, and i'm purely asking because i'm curious, has evolution been emperically tested? I know we have fossils, etc, but has it ever been observed? Actually, it's funny, i just started reading the 'Source' book again and i remember that the author mentioned how things probably have evolved..so i really have no problem believing in it, but i'm still curious if anything has been observed.

bige, if we can't test for God, then why test for anything?

How does randomness bring about order though? What about entropy and the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

Midnight_Rider · Post by **Midnight_Rider** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:08 am

moxhairr/t wrote:you believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe. I really dont care about religion nor do I want to learn about it.

The worst thing that someone can do is try to force his own beliefs on someone else. If someone is really interested in what you believe, he will ask you about it. Eh, religion is man-made anyway, right?

03sxt wrote:Teach about the Evo!!

03blackrt · Post by **03blackrt** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:26 am

Darwin did reseach in the Galapagos Islands (sp) where the birds so rapidly evolved that each year the brids would have different beaks to better suit how the vegatation was growing (or something along those lines). thats world famous reserch that shows that animals adapt to their enviroment, thats called evolution. Besides, if we are special an uniquie, do you belive in extral terrestrial life? how could we be so special if there is other life out there? what makes us so special if we are the only life? why would a creator only create one lifeform? why would a creator creat more then one lifeform? why did the creator create the rest of the universe? what the hell is the purpose to create another galaxy 900 trillion lightyears away from us? (I like asking questions,

)

Most of the beliefs humans have come from the very nature of being humans, having emotion. we want to be special. we don't want to be resposable (aka its better to blame some creator then ourselves). we want inmortality.bwe are faliable, so we look for something that is not. we want things easy. after death there is some type of afterlife. whatever else you can think of... they are all beliefs that can be drawin back to the vary nature of humans.

Anyways, im not trying to disprove anything either, just have a conversation about this stuff. Im the kind of guy that like to experiance things for myself. therefore, I have to finish living my life before I can make and statements about life, and most certinally will not take someones word for it just because (aka haveing faith [blind faith], not that i don't have faith or anything, but well... hopefully you get the point)

Anyways (yet again

), I belive everyone should experiance everything for themself, therefore nothing in the faith/religion should be taught in a mass academic enviorment (like grade school). i think if you wish to learn about faith/religion, it sould be prusued independitly from the public school system and absoulutly never be forced on anyone..

J-Villa · Post by **J-Villa** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:40 am

i voted...but i'll keep my opinions to myself

dover which is like 5 minutes from me made national news which this subject

2GN.ORG

Intelligent Design Vs. Evolution?

Should ID be included in science textbooks?

Intelligent Design Vs. Evolution?