SOHC ITB's?

Have a question about how to make horsepower going the all motor route, here's where to ask it.
Post Reply
03blackrt
2GN Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

SOHC ITB's?

Post by 03blackrt » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:57 pm

I thought I’d share what I’ve been working on… SOHC ITB’s!

I’ve been thinking about these for some time. Thinking about how to best package them inside the engine bay, how to most easily fabricate them, ect… This is what I’ve come up with.

The ITB’s would consist of a five piece manifold. One piece being a mounting flange that can be machined from a 3” x 1” x 15” piece of flat aluminum. This piece would bolt to the head and have holes for the fuel injectors. There would be four individual runners that would bolt onto this flange. These runners would be machined from four 3” long pieces of 3” diameter extruded aluminum cylinders.

This seems to be the design that would require the least amount of machine work. The mounting flange could easily be made with a CNC vertical mill with only a few operations. The runners would likely require two operations on a CNC lath and a few operations on a vertical mill.

A roughly 15” piece of 3/8” stainless steel rod supported by eight ball-bearings would actuate four 2” diameter stainless steel throttle plates.

The runner length of the ITB’s would be 4” long with the intake ports inside the head being about 4” long too, making a total runner length of 8”. The inlet of the ITB’s would be 2.5” inside diameter and 3” outside diameter, making it easy for a set of air filters or velocity stacks (of varying lengths) to be bolted onto them.


Here are some pics of the design sketches to give you an idea of what I'm talking about…

( The green area is the mounting flange with the blue being the runner. The pink are is the actuator rod and the dark red the ball-bearing supports on either side of each runner. The yellow would indicate the cylinder head)

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Anyways, I’m currently setting up the CAM files and sourcing materials and hardware to get a cost estimate and will hopefully have a set machined this coming summer.

I think I've came upon a viable solution to bring a reasonably priced ($800-$900) set of CNC'd aluminum ITB's to the Neon aftermarket. Hopefully no one steals my ideas now that I've posted them :(

I'm open to thoughts/opinions/discussion on the subject.

racer12306
Junior Admin
Posts: 16012
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Post by racer12306 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:00 pm

I'll be straight, if I do steal the plans. I won't sell the product.

Promise.
-Frank
Member of Spork Racing
Forum issues: racer12306@2gn.org
Forum Behavior
Support your favorite forum, DONATE!

ZeroChad
2009 Gold Contributor
Posts: 3165
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:08 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by ZeroChad » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:06 pm

Awesome. I love your projects man. Nice throwback to the hacksawed head.
Old Neon Log | Feedback

2000 - Corvette Coupe
2002 - Neon SE Fully Built (scrapped)

User avatar
INVUJerry
2GN Veteran
Posts: 6441
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Pasadena, MD
Contact:

Post by INVUJerry » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:34 pm

If you can undercut the competition, I'd definately but a set.
Image
So many neons so little time.

OB
Former Moderator
Posts: 9686
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:38 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Post by OB » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:47 pm

Cool I'll be following this project!
-Derek

|Donate to 2gn|Feedback || OB's | GozziFab | All Business |


User avatar
INVUJerry
2GN Veteran
Posts: 6441
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Pasadena, MD
Contact:

Post by INVUJerry » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:54 pm

Looking at it, you're around the same price as AMM and Arthur, but with different one off parts. I'd def have to think about it for my build.
Image
So many neons so little time.

03blackrt
2GN Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Post by 03blackrt » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:34 pm

It’ll be a completely custom piece. No use of cut up stock manifolds and throttle bodies.

I just finished the CAM (computer aided machining) file for the runners. Hopefully these pics will show what I’m looking to do a little better. Three bolts (one on either side and one on the bottom) will attach this to the mounting flange piece. The bolts will come in from the "back" side of the flange and thread into the runner.

Image

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
INVUJerry
2GN Veteran
Posts: 6441
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Pasadena, MD
Contact:

Post by INVUJerry » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:39 pm

How big are the tbs going to he at the inlet? From wha I read bigger is not always better. 45mm would probably work near the best.
Image
So many neons so little time.

03blackrt
2GN Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Post by 03blackrt » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:02 pm

The inlet is 2.5" (~63mm). From my research, that is a good size to have for the SOHC intake valve size. This size will do the best job at compressing/acclerating the air into the engine at higher rpms.

racer12306
Junior Admin
Posts: 16012
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Post by racer12306 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:14 pm

How about the throttle bodies?

stock 52mm? or go with 1GN 49mm?
-Frank
Member of Spork Racing
Forum issues: racer12306@2gn.org
Forum Behavior
Support your favorite forum, DONATE!

03blackrt
2GN Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Post by 03blackrt » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:28 pm

The throttle body is built into the "runner" I've designed. The throttle plates I'll be using are 2" (51mm) in diameter.

racer12306
Junior Admin
Posts: 16012
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Post by racer12306 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:29 pm

I got it now.

Nice plan.
-Frank
Member of Spork Racing
Forum issues: racer12306@2gn.org
Forum Behavior
Support your favorite forum, DONATE!

User avatar
excon
2GN Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Richmond, VA

Post by excon » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:24 pm

can i have your magnum intake manifold WHEN you do this?
Image

User avatar
Danteneon
Former Moderator
Posts: 9591
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:13 pm
Location: Manassas, VA

Post by Danteneon » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:29 pm

:shock:

I will follow this very closely. One part of my 2.4 SOHC project would involve ITBs. And since you are already several steps ahead of me (and much more adapt at pulling this off) I very well may buy a setup from you.

Kudos and good luck sir!
If I could just figure out how to meld the Outback and the Neon into one car...

Image

hul kogan
Former Moderator
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Toledo, OH
Contact:

Post by hul kogan » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:40 pm

Very nice and well thought out! I can't wait to see this lead to a tangible product. Good luck!
Chris | 00 Dodge Neon (Dark Jewel) | 04 Dodge Neon R/T | 00 Honda S2000 |

Proud member of CYL [www.caughtyalookin.com]
Image

User avatar
INVUJerry
2GN Veteran
Posts: 6441
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Pasadena, MD
Contact:

Post by INVUJerry » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:17 pm

I talked to Crane today, they're going to be regrinding cams in "a few months".
Image
So many neons so little time.

03blackrt
2GN Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Post by 03blackrt » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:02 pm

Just a few more pics for someone to maybe make some sense of.

Image

Image

Image

Ntyvirus1
2009 Silver Contributor
Posts: 2103
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:30 pm
Location: Orlando, FL

Post by Ntyvirus1 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:03 pm

noobish question but would this be for race-only applications?
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000038

Image
hul kogan wrote: And from thy shadows he comes to rippeth thine buttholes. :lol
MoxHair wrote:You should never throw parts at a car.. You'll dent the exterior.

03blackrt
2GN Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Post by 03blackrt » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:08 pm

The setup I'll be making should be street friendly, aside from any tuning/PCM issues that may come up.

User avatar
caustic neon
2GN Member
Posts: 1517
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:36 am
Location: Pa
Contact:

Post by caustic neon » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:00 pm

a bad ass street SOHC with ITB's oh hells yes im in,
Bacon is a Vegetable


Image
Neons owned
2003 Dodge SXT (MAGGIE) = Dead X 3
1997 Dodge Highline DOHC coupe = Sold
1996 Dodge sedan (Baby) SOHC = Sold
1996 Dodge espresso coupe SOHC (Stella) = Dead
1998 Plymouth ACR------- more to come

User avatar
INVUJerry
2GN Veteran
Posts: 6441
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Pasadena, MD
Contact:

Post by INVUJerry » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:13 pm

The only issue when running on a stock style PCM, you're going to have to build a vac tank. This is what sick95sohc used:
Image

The reason for seperating the MAP sensor from the main tree is so that there is less signal fluctiation to the map sensor.
Image
So many neons so little time.

03blackrt
2GN Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Post by 03blackrt » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:31 pm

I'll be using a vacuum reservoir that'll house the IAC, MAP sensor and a few vac ports.


The thing I'm most worried about is if the PCM throws a fit with the different, not-very-stock MAPS/TPS correlation

User avatar
INVUJerry
2GN Veteran
Posts: 6441
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Pasadena, MD
Contact:

Post by INVUJerry » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:42 pm

That's the reason why the MAP sensor is seperate, to lower the fluctuation of the MAP signal when you tip into the throttle.
Image
So many neons so little time.

occasional demons
Junior Admin
Posts: 18955
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: Ashland Ohio

Post by occasional demons » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:07 pm

Pretty awsome stuff. I like how the IAC/vacuum log is intregrated into the mounting flange. That cleans it up considerably over external tubing. :thumbup:

Yeah, this may give some TPS/MAP correlation issues even on non NGC. But then again, going WOT with a 65mm on my GB with a 76mm inlet didn't do anything other than bog. There is, of course only one way to find out.
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
epic

2001 Neon ES MTX with '02 R/T PCM
Help support 2GN!

User avatar
INVUJerry
2GN Veteran
Posts: 6441
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Pasadena, MD
Contact:

Post by INVUJerry » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:12 pm

Going WOT on this isn't going to matter, it's the just around driveability. If I didn't still want to street drive my 98, I'd have done ITB's long ago. When I go MS, it'll def be ITB's.
Image
So many neons so little time.

neonpla
2GN Member
Posts: 2571
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:27 am
Location: Killeen, TX

Post by neonpla » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:34 pm

if this ever comes up, ill buy a project to use these on.
2008 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
2005 Dodge Neon SRT4

03blackrt
2GN Member
Posts: 3993
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Post by 03blackrt » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:15 pm

occasional demons wrote:Pretty awsome stuff. I like how the IAC/vacuum log is intregrated into the mounting flange. That cleans it up considerably over external tubing. :thumbup:

I'm glad someone noticed that. I think it's a pretty cool part of the design. :D

Though I am going to revise the vacuum porting design to reduce how many rmachining operations it takes to manufacture it. Less machining = less money!



I also think I now have the drivability problems solved. :D

occasional demons
Junior Admin
Posts: 18955
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: Ashland Ohio

Post by occasional demons » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:19 am

03blackrt wrote: I also think I now have the drivability problems solved. :D

Dime sized throttle openings? :lol:
Bill
dblsg wrote:ya'll a bunch of post whores
epic

2001 Neon ES MTX with '02 R/T PCM
Help support 2GN!

User avatar
INVUJerry
2GN Veteran
Posts: 6441
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Pasadena, MD
Contact:

Post by INVUJerry » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:37 pm

Offset cam on the throttle linkage?
Image
So many neons so little time.

Ntyvirus1
2009 Silver Contributor
Posts: 2103
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:30 pm
Location: Orlando, FL

Post by Ntyvirus1 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:40 pm

a "Mr. Fusion" to fuel the flux capacitor? (=
Official "I'm Going to Drive My Neon till it Dies" Club #000038

Image
hul kogan wrote: And from thy shadows he comes to rippeth thine buttholes. :lol
MoxHair wrote:You should never throw parts at a car.. You'll dent the exterior.

Post Reply

Return to “Naturally Aspirated”