Clutch / Hydraulic Problem - FIXED

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:12 pm

recently the temperature had dropped here, gone from about 15c to about 0c.

since then my gearbox (mtx) has had some issues, when the car is cold it is VERY difficult to engage the gears, both fwd and reverse, the clutch pedal is down and it takes a lot of effort to get it into gear, when it does go in the car sometimes lunges forward (obviously not when reverse gear) and sometimes when pushing into gear can hear the gears grinding as it goes in.

when i have been driving about 3-5 mins its perfect as it used to be.

it didnt do this last winter when it was just as cold though!

any remedies?

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:47 am

Sounds like your clutch is not fully disengaging. Cold oil would not do the grinding/ lunges part, only being stiff in between gears. Could be a combination of the clutch dragging and cold oil. Check the fluid in the clutch master cyl.

2001rt32 · Post by **2001rt32** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:50 am

when was you trans fluid last replaced? if not too recently i would change it. maybe its contaminated with something turning it thicker when cold. if not just let your car warm up longer before you drive it

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:06 pm

2001rt32 wrote: if not just let your car warm up longer before you drive it

It would take a long time to transfer heat through the bellhousing to warm that oil. Unfortunately the only way is to drive it.

Or raise the wheels off the ground and put it in gear.

I loved my 5 speed Raider, put the tranfer case in "N", the transmission in 3rd, and by the time the windshield was defrosted the trans would shift like it was just slathered with KY.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:51 pm

as far as i am aware the transmission oil has never been changed, and the car has done close to 32,000 miles (2001 built)

i thought maybe the oil had been contaminated with water and it freezes up in the cold, but thought id check?

anyway ill change the oil in the next few weeks when these foot of snow disapprear and let you know whats happened?

any while i am there i will check the clutch master cylinder ... if someone tells me how please? ive never had to do it before and im a bit of a noob

Much Appreciated

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:04 pm

checked the clutch fluid, seems fine.

i took the plastic cap off the resevoir and then took out some strange shaped rubber cone thing ???

after that the fluid was well over the min line

so i guess its time to change the gear oil and see what happens?

woodchuckssuck · Post by **woodchuckssuck** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:21 am

My Neon used to act the same in winter, Hard to get into gear until engine was up to temperature. Well, maybe not so much hard but stiff shifting. Never lunged forward, though... What I did this fall was to order some Booger Bushings for the shifter, install them, and swap out my tranny fluid to Pennzoil Synchromesh. It comes in a round container, like gear oil. My MTX now shifts very smoothly, warm or cold. I also dont miss gears or overshoot them anymore with the stiffer bushings, once they broke in. It does take the booger bushings a few hundred miles of frequent shifting to slick up, but in my case it was worth it, and then some!

Another good fluid would be Amsoil Synchromesh. About twice the price as Pennzoil, but of course much better fluid. I could find Pennzoil local, not Amsoil....

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:42 am

Thanks for the advice!

i have asctually got some boogers on order and i got an email from jeff this morning saying they had been shipped, so give it a few weeks and they'll be here.

Gear oil here dosen't seem to be a big thing, 99% of mechanics say it never needs changing so the choices of oil are very very limited but im sure a fresh load of plain oem oil would be better right?

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:35 am

Have bought some Mobil Super S 10w-40 Semi-synthetic.

from what i have read this works well as gear oil ... basically in the UK ... you cant buy manual gear oil, dont know why but nowhere sells it.

Click Me

this stuff says it has enhanced anti-wear additives but no mention of Zinc or Phosphorus and cant find the info anywhere ... so really its either this or (a cheaper version of this) or AQ3 automatic transmission oil ...

Donkeypuncher · Post by **Donkeypuncher** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:46 am

Penzoil synchromesh is always a safe bet if it's available in the UK. In the US we have it at every auto parts store so I don't see why the UK would have it.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:48 am

unfortunately not. the very best we can get is comma (very cheap oil make) AQ3 auto oil ... manual oil dosent seem to be availible at halfords (nationwide parts store) or local auto factors

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:26 pm

nerox wrote:Have bought some Mobil Super S 10w-40 Semi-synthetic.

from what i have read this works well as gear oil ... basically in the UK ... you cant buy manual gear oil, dont know why but nowhere sells it.

Click Me

PLEASE DON'T put that into your transmission !!!

The ONLY Motor Oil that you want to put into the Neon manual transmission, is Mobil One High-Mileage full synthetic motor oil.

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=352563

- Nick

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:43 pm

oh, ok then. well unfortunately we dont have that here in the uk

any other suggestions on what to put in?

have found some RedLine MTL but its about £20 ($35) per litre

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:54 pm

nerox wrote: have found some RedLine MTL but its about £20 ($35) per litre

MTL is a compatible replacement lube, but it is only $8 or $9 USD/liter in the States. (1 quart = .946 liter)

That is insane. Possibly some sort of import tariff?

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:07 pm

it says is 70W80 Gear oil

'Redline MTL Gear Oil Race Car'

and its £13.75 + £5 Delivery Per Quart Bottle so thats £18.75 per quart = $29.98 (at todays rate) so a whole 2.2 liters needed would be near $90 !!!

i can get some comma gear oil (5L = approx $40) if anyone knows the actual stuff to buy ... there are about 4 different types of auto and 2 or 3 different manual oils to choose from.

the website says to use 'Multi-Vehicle Automatic Transmission, Manual Transmission & power steering oil (meets Mopar +3/+4)

http://www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/180

can someone look at this and tell me if its right. the car is sat in the garage with an empty gearbox waiting the knowledge of the experts.

Thanks!

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:27 pm

It may say 70W80, but it is no thicker than what is in there from the factory. I have MTL in mine. It poured pretty well. It is no where near as heavy as 75w gear oil.

Satisifies the gear oil viscosity requirements of 70W, 75W, 80W, and motor oil viscosities of SAE 30, 10W30, and 5W30

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files ... 20Info.pdf

Edit: Comma might be your best choice. If there are no other brands reasonably priced.

The only trouble being yours has the Mopar fluid, not ATF. What is the Mopar stuff per litre?

Donkeypuncher · Post by **Donkeypuncher** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:36 pm

There has to be some comparable oil in the UK. I can't believe there wouldn't be one specific oil that would work.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:16 pm

it says in my haynes manual that MS 9417 or equivalent but these searches on car parts website give no results.

one website says 'What are the equivalent alternatives to MS 9417 for manual transaxel fluid?'

Answer: That fluid is no longer used. The correct new fluid for your Cars manual transmission is now Chrysler ATF+4

I have found one website that sells AMSOIL Synthetic Manual Synchromesh Transmission fluid

but thats £14.50 ($24) per 946ml!

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:57 pm

ok i think im just gonna replace it with the Comma stuff, its got to be better than the nearly 9 year old oil thats in it at the moment right?

ill run it until about November 2010 and then swap it over for some high quality stuff when time and money permit,

so the next question is ... which is better

the previously mentioned AMSOIL manual synchromesh transmission fluid

OR

Redline MTL fluid (this is a little cheaper)
and also which of the MTL to choose?
-70w80 or -75w90

Many Thanks Guys

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:58 pm

The Amsoil may have an edge over the MTL, and if going MTL, the 70w80 is the stuff you want. See above quote.

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f ... 99&start=0

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:33 am

Thanks for everyones contributions, will do the change today (dependant on getting the right oil) and post back in a few hours

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:39 pm

sorry i didnt update, my computer has given up and had to get a new one.

i did get some of the Comma oil which meets the aparent specification.

its quite thin and easy flowing compared to the original stuff. and its bright red!

the drained oil was a golden colour mixed with a bit of rusy orange.

will post results after a few days ... booger install next weekend i hope

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:40 pm

nerox wrote:sorry i didnt update, my computer has given up and had to get a new one.

i did get some of the Comma oil which meets the aparent specification.

its quite thin and easy flowing compared to the original stuff. and its bright red!

the drained oil was a golden colour mixed with a bit of rusy orange.

will post results after a few days ... booger install next weekend i hope

Thanks for the update !

Can you post the specifications for this 'Comma' fluid ??
I've never seen it (nor heard of it) stateside.

- Nick

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:27 am

its a very common oil make here in the uk.

http://www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/180

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:07 am

nerox wrote:its a very common oil make here in the uk.

http://www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/180

Interesting.
I wonder how it compares to ATF+3 and +4?
Do you notice any difference (shift quality, smoothness, etc.) ??

- Nick

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:41 pm

this morning it didnt seem to make any difference, but then the car hasn't been driven since i changed it, this evening i didnt seem to have any problems shifting, but then it wasnt cold (which is the only time i have problems)

now have driven about 20 miles and the oil had a chance to fly around, will see what its like if its cold tomorrow.

if it isnt any better tomorrow, im guessing its a dragging clutch?

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:08 pm

ok definately no better with the new oil. i spoke to chrysler dealer here and they said most likely a hydraulic issue?

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:44 pm

nerox wrote:ok definately no better with the new oil. i spoke to chrysler dealer here and they said most likely a hydraulic issue?

A HYDRAULIC issue ???
That can't be...... unless they are referring to the hydraulically-assisted clutch ??

The term 'hydraulic' would normally apply to an automatic transmission, not a manual, since there is no fluid that is 'pressurized' in the manual transmission.

As far as I know, the fluid used in the hydraulic assist for the clutch, shouldn't really have any 'viscosity' issues due to the cold, that I am aware of.

If the hydraulically-assisted clutch is not the problem, you might want to start shopping around for a replacement fluid.
People on Neons.Org have reported good results using Amsoil and Redline MTL (*the Redline seems to have better reviews, for people in very cold climates.)

I READ ABOUT an interesting alternative fluid, posted by one user, on 'The.Org'.

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=335975

I use Allison TranSynd (primarily for ATX but works great on MTX TOO). A buddy uses GM Synco-mesh in his and has no issues either. the TranSynd got rid of my stiff shifting at very very cold temps (like colder than 10 below). I actually tap'd a drag plug into my transmission and then used the inspection port to fill it back up. My buddy went to Valvoline Instant Oil change place and had it sucked dry and refilled for 20 bucks with him supplying the fluid.

You might want to see if this is available 'across the pond' ??

- Nick

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:30 pm

interesting you say about the mtx oil, just changed it for some fresh atf+4 equivalent and noticed no difference.

The dealership said it was most likely the clutch slave cylinder was failing and therefore fluid pressure was being lost over a period of time and that's why it only works properly when its warm.

im not knowledable to know any different really so it seemed to make sense ... maybe not though ?

Post by **racer12306** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:22 pm

Even though it says 70w80 on it, it is not extremely thick.

Gear oil is rated differently than motor oil.

There is a chart somewhere, I've posted it before.