hey guys i wanna do the big 3 so i have 3 questions b 4 i get started!
will welding cable work?
what gauge is good?
how many feet?
thanks.
big 3 please
i prefer this one.
viewtopic.php?t=9909
the only thing not pictured in that thread is the alt to battery +, but that is pretty self-explanatory. i would say at a minimum 4g wire, 0g if you plan on running a true 1000rms+ system. welding cable will work however you may have some problems with the bends. i have found it is not really that flexible.
viewtopic.php?t=9909
the only thing not pictured in that thread is the alt to battery +, but that is pretty self-explanatory. i would say at a minimum 4g wire, 0g if you plan on running a true 1000rms+ system. welding cable will work however you may have some problems with the bends. i have found it is not really that flexible.
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occasional demons
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Hmm, the stuff we have at work is pretty damn limber. It prolly depends on the grade. The stuff we use is very fine wire, just a shit load of it in the cable.nineball wrote: welding cable will work however you may have some problems with the bends. i have found it is not really that flexible.
Bill
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
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heydockyle
- 2011 Silver Contributor
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- Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:09 pm
- Location: Uniontown, Pennsylvania
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occasional demons
- Junior Admin
- Posts: 20067
- Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:14 pm
- Location: Ashland Ohio
Most parts stores, welding supply stores.
Shit just buy some professional grade jumper cables from Wal Mart, and cut the clamps off. The ones I have are 4 ga. IIRC they have a heavier set too.
Shit just buy some professional grade jumper cables from Wal Mart, and cut the clamps off. The ones I have are 4 ga. IIRC they have a heavier set too.
Bill
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
-
heydockyle
- 2011 Silver Contributor
- Posts: 4829
- Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:09 pm
- Location: Uniontown, Pennsylvania
Sounds like a good idea, but is it cheaper that way..?occasional demons wrote:Most parts stores, welding supply stores.
Shit just buy some professional grade jumper cables from Wal Mart, and cut the clamps off. The ones I have are 4 ga. IIRC they have a heavier set too.
05 OB SRT-4 - AGP Stg 3 Delta 44 Turbo w/ Supporting mods
98 Platinum Coupe - 2.4 Swap
98 Flame Red Sedan - DD Slow
98 Sport Coupe - Totaled
05 SXT - Sold
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occasional demons
- Junior Admin
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- Location: Ashland Ohio
I have no clue as to what welding cable currently goes for a foot.
NAPA may sell it. A possible option would be to "search it" on their website for local pricing. Then you could go to your local store and see if it would work.
One thing to consider, is with a set of 20' jumpers, you are getting about 40' of cable...
NAPA may sell it. A possible option would be to "search it" on their website for local pricing. Then you could go to your local store and see if it would work.
One thing to consider, is with a set of 20' jumpers, you are getting about 40' of cable...
Bill
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
Probably shouldn't listen to anything your penis says, that guy's a dick.
Too much time spent here is a sign of a bad case of Ownaneonvirus.Patience, of course, is a very powerful weapon, but sometimes I start to regret that it is not a firearm.
2000 Neon MTX swap with '02 R/T PCM
1999 neon coupe 2.4 swap
-
heydockyle
- 2011 Silver Contributor
- Posts: 4829
- Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:09 pm
- Location: Uniontown, Pennsylvania
$16 for 18' of 4g monster cable with some 8g and 18g speaker wire as well.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... e=Category
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... e=Category
ya the make probably matters a lot. i found a good deal on hyperflex 0g and used that. that stuff is like butter. i am literally amazed at how flexible it is for being such a huge cable. the welding cable i found was low strand count so that made bending it a pain.occasional demons wrote:Hmm, the stuff we have at work is pretty damn limber. It prolly depends on the grade. The stuff we use is very fine wire, just a shit load of it in the cable.
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heydockyle
- 2011 Silver Contributor
- Posts: 4829
- Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:09 pm
- Location: Uniontown, Pennsylvania
nineball wrote:$16 for 18' of 4g monster cable with some 8g and 18g speaker wire as well.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... e=Category
Dam that stuff is marked way down. Just ordered
05 OB SRT-4 - AGP Stg 3 Delta 44 Turbo w/ Supporting mods
98 Platinum Coupe - 2.4 Swap
98 Flame Red Sedan - DD Slow
98 Sport Coupe - Totaled
05 SXT - Sold
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blue_streak95
- 2GN Member
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:32 am
don't solder them, use a proper crimper. go to www.weldingsupply.com and search for Lenco Swedge-On. only costs $8 and it will be a far better connection than soldering.
-
blue_streak95
- 2GN Member
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:32 am
the cap will not help you. see the end of this post as to why.
be sure that all of your connections are tight including the ring terminals on the wire itself. there is no way you should have gotten worse from bigger wire. something has to be loos or not properly connected.
why you don't need a cap.
After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?
Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.
A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.
WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?
As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )
Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).
Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.
As you may know, amplifiers are made up a bank of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.
Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.
Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:
WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?
Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid and lead plates, as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:
http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm
Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.
WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?
The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.
WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?
Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens
When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.5V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.
HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?
1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads
For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.
Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.
IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?
My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.
Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT
In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.
Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, ・.The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged・ I知 not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)
SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?
1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..
Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it痴 over.
HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?
They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?
IN A NUTSHELL.......
When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.
WHY?
In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.
STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?
Here's the Original Cap Debate.
http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives...-1-000307.html
Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.
Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.
In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( www.battcap.net ) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors, and I wish my Archie Bunker skills could have said it better myself.
be sure that all of your connections are tight including the ring terminals on the wire itself. there is no way you should have gotten worse from bigger wire. something has to be loos or not properly connected.
why you don't need a cap.
After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?
Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.
A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.
WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?
As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )
Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).
Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.
As you may know, amplifiers are made up a bank of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.
Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.
Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:
WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?
Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid and lead plates, as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:
http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm
Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.
WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?
The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.
WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?
Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens
When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.5V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.
HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?
1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads
For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.
Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.
IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?
My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.
Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT
In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.
Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, ・.The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged・ I知 not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)
SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?
1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..
Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it痴 over.
HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?
They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?
IN A NUTSHELL.......
When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.
WHY?
In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.
STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?
Here's the Original Cap Debate.
http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives...-1-000307.html
Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.
Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.
In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( www.battcap.net ) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors, and I wish my Archie Bunker skills could have said it better myself.
damn nineball i leave 2gn for 2 years and your still bashing on caps LOL.
its not the capacity you have to look at its the speed of its discharge, a cap can discharge WAYYY faster than a battery... well let me rephrase that a GOOD quality cap.
depending on your setup NO caps wont eliminate dimming headlights by itself. but what it will do is help keep the amp from choking itself. if they were so useless answer this when i had my neon i had the 120A alternator. i had 2 MRD-M605's. without the caps lights dimmed. with them lights dimmed much less and there was some DB increase... and i had the BIG 3 upgrade. measurements were taken as far as voltage drop and with a DB meter. they DO help but they dont ELIMINATE the problem of why it happens.
the only thing that MECP says thats extremely beneficial is that they help with the longevity of the amp, along with SOME components of the car depending how much your drawing. thats pretty much it.
now if you look at it from a price point, and considering how much the ME industry mark up these bastards yea there are WAY better solutions for the same cost. but if you can get a good quality cap at a fair cost then by all means get it.
its not the capacity you have to look at its the speed of its discharge, a cap can discharge WAYYY faster than a battery... well let me rephrase that a GOOD quality cap.
depending on your setup NO caps wont eliminate dimming headlights by itself. but what it will do is help keep the amp from choking itself. if they were so useless answer this when i had my neon i had the 120A alternator. i had 2 MRD-M605's. without the caps lights dimmed. with them lights dimmed much less and there was some DB increase... and i had the BIG 3 upgrade. measurements were taken as far as voltage drop and with a DB meter. they DO help but they dont ELIMINATE the problem of why it happens.
the only thing that MECP says thats extremely beneficial is that they help with the longevity of the amp, along with SOME components of the car depending how much your drawing. thats pretty much it.
now if you look at it from a price point, and considering how much the ME industry mark up these bastards yea there are WAY better solutions for the same cost. but if you can get a good quality cap at a fair cost then by all means get it.
Craz1000 wrote:damn nineball i leave 2gn for 2 years and your still bashing on caps LOL.
liar!
Craz1000
Replies: 1
Views: 119
PostForum: South/Southeast Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:21 pm
i'll bash caps til the day i die. they have no place in car audio. dimming is caused when you tax your electrical system too much and a cap adds nothing to the equation other than another source that needs more power.