Driving my car and the engine stopped on me.. **Update #3**

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:09 am

So today I was driving my neon (drove it for about a few minutes) and the engine died on me.. It cut out while driving under normal conditions..

Went to start it back up and it didn't start. The engine was turning over but wasn't coming on.

I checked the fuel, it was good.

I checked the spark, it was sparking but it wasn't a blue spark.. more yellow/orangeish (don't know if it needs to be blue). I know the spark coil ontop of the valve cover is stock from factory and has 130k on it.. So maybe this is the problem? Don't know for sure.

It's really weird and I don't know how to explain it really.. So the car is at my girlfriend's house and it's going to snow tomorrow night.

Any input on this would be great!

Thanks
-Chris

EDIT: Update number 3 is at the bottom of page 2

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:14 am

Start swapping relays in the PDC. I have had my ASD relay shut my car down, within 10 feet of moving. I swapped it with the horn relay, and I was going on my way. The contacts in the relay just got to the point they wouldn't work. It was nothing PCM/other related, just the relay itself.

Edit: also try the fuel pump relay. Tho you should hear the pump run for a second when keying on. The ASD will prevent the FP relay from energizing, IIRC, tho.

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:19 am

Yeah, you can hear the fuel pump kick on just like before.

I will have to try swapping relays in the PDC.. Thats a good idea.. really didn't think of doing that.

Thats all under the hood in the fusebox right?

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:24 am

Correct. It's easy, and it's free!

FAC3L3SS · Post by **FAC3L3SS** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:24 am

And if it works, he leaves it? Or he just knows what fuse needs replacing?

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:32 am

If it works, he buys a new relay, and put the other one back. They are about $15 ish from the dealer. I have found the Omron relays else where for less, but with shipping, they aren't any cheaper.

FAC3L3SS · Post by **FAC3L3SS** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:33 am

True, saving $3< instant gratification.

Hopefully it's something simple like that for you Chris.

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:33 am

Yeah, if it works I will just buy a brand new relay and give the horn it's old relay back.

Poor horn, never gets used or receives any attention

Edit: Thanks Adam, now that I'm thinking about it.. the relay does sound like the cause of it.

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:46 pm

Car still wont start, tried changing the relays.. A code came up reading that the camshaft sensor wasn't good (replaced that and the coil pack).

I did notice, however, when I tested the Voltage for the plug that goes into the coil pack, it was REALLY low like a .001-.003. Does anyone know what it should be at? I tested positive into the connector wire and negative to the negative battery terminal.

1972demon · Post by **1972demon** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:51 pm

test you crank position sensor,

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:12 pm

Better check to see if the cam is turning....

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:15 pm

I think it's turning. My dad stuck his hand in the timing belt cover and felt the belt spin.

Edit: when we replaced the cam position sensor, the check engine light went away.

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:30 pm

OK, the coil connector center should be the (+) volts. The two outer wires should ground via the coil driver in the PCM. You can check it by using a test light. Clip to the center socket, and ground to either of the outer sockets. You may need a paper clip or two to insert into the connector. The light should flash when cranking. If it doesn't, you have a crank sensor problem like mentioned, wiring, or the PCM itself is the issue.

I'm not 100% sure what the voltage should be at the center pin, but I can't imagine it being less than 8 volts. The coil would need at least that. I would think closer to 10 to 12 volts would be the norm.

The ASD, or SKIM can be ruled out, because I don't think the FP would run with either of those.

Edit: Just don't short the paper clips when checking for volts/ground. You may fry the coil driver(s). I have heard of PCM failure, due to shorted coils.

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:35 pm

Yeah, thats what i was thinking (with the voltage in the coil connector wire)

I'm going to find a wire diagram and check it out.. I can't wait to finally get my car running again.. It only has problems in the cold months..

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:55 pm

Basically, you should have the same voltage at the injectors, and the coil.

Also fuse 21 in the PDC powers the coil/injectors through the ASD relay. But it also powers the fuel pump, and PCM, so I would say it is good.

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:02 pm

Awesome! Thanks a lot for all your help!

Depending on the snow and everything, i might be able to work on the car tomorrow..

My car is about 25minutes away at my girl friend's house on top of a mountain.. So that is the only draw back with my car being worked on right now.. haha

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:58 am

Sorry for the late responses..

My truck had to one up the neon last night.. Long story short, transmission is shot in the truck.. had to get it towed to aamco. The truck's transmission was rebuilt 2 years ago from aamco and they better fix it because a rebuild shouldn't go to shit in 2 years.

anyways, back to the neon.. I finally got time to do some tests. I'm 90% sure the crankshaft position sensor is bad, so once i get that replaced I will let you guys know if the crank position sensor is in fact the problem.

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:34 pm

Ok.... replaced the crank position sensor.. nothing.

I did take the air intake off the car, put my hand over the throttlebody and (while cranking it) you can feel air get sucked in and blown out..

Anyone know whats causing that.. Maybe the timing is screwed?

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:48 am

*UPDATE*

So I finally got time to work on my car.. had to get a tow dolly and bring it to my house.. Had to barrow my dad's truck because my truck is still at AAMCO (they almost started working on it without our permission.... So who knows whats going to happen with my truck.)

I tore the car down to the timing belt and found the belt was chewed up on the edges and shredded belt dust in the timing cover.. The crankshaft arrow is a little ahead of the camshaft.. So i take it that the timing did jump.

My dad thinks the timing belt tensioner took a shit and caused the belt to rub on the cover.. Makes sense.. So I have to buy a new timing belt and tensioner.. I hope the valves and everything are ok, i think they will be.

heydockyle · Post by **heydockyle** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:27 am

If the timing is off more then a tooth say bye bye valves. Sorry.

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:13 am

Are you serious?

Its off by a few but the crank is ahead of the cam by a little bit. But I also set the cam about a tooth behind when I did the timing belt (haynes manual told me to)

Dylan-00Blue · Post by **Dylan-00Blue** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:09 pm

sorry buddy but it sounds like head swap time

TheRandom1 · Post by **TheRandom1** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:47 pm

Ouch... Good luck!

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:17 pm

heydockyle wrote:If the timing is off more then a tooth say bye bye valves. Sorry.

Use it as an EXCUSE to upgrade.

Put on a fresh cyl.head, with fresh new valve seals, maybe do some light porting, OR upgrade to a Magnum, and put in the Magnum springs and change the cam, while you are at it.....

- Nick

heydockyle · Post by **heydockyle** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:31 pm

Haganracing wrote:Are you serious?

Its off by a few but the crank is ahead of the cam by a little bit. But I also set the cam about a tooth behind when I did the timing belt (haynes manual told me to)

Well there is a dam good chance they are bent. From what I've been told anything over a half tooth and it can possibly bend them. And not only that, but you say it is barely off. For all you know the crank did a 360 and is back up there, but the cam didn't move.

What yours looks like is exactly what the 1gn looked like. Belt was still on the cams, but there was rubber everywhere. Turned out the tensioner broke in half because the kid didn't change it. Skipped like 3 teeth(Or went around 360) and bent all 8 exhaust valves bad enough that you could see it.

Just trying to prepare you for the worst, hopefully this isn't the case.

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:22 pm

heydockyle wrote:
Well there is a dam good chance they are bent. From what I've been told anything over a half tooth and it can possibly bend them. And not only that, but you say it is barely off. For all you know the crank did a 360 and is back up there, but the cam didn't move.

What yours looks like is exactly what the 1gn looked like. Belt was still on the cams, but there was rubber everywhere. Turned out the tensioner broke in half because the kid didn't change it. Skipped like 3 teeth(Or went around 360) and bent all 8 exhaust valves bad enough that you could see it.

Just trying to prepare you for the worst, hopefully this isn't the case.

I agree with Heydockyle.

There is a (small) outside chance that the valves did not get bent.
And it is possible for the engine to do a "360".... I've seen them do 180's, too.

- Nick

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:50 pm

heydockyle wrote:Just trying to prepare you for the worst, hopefully this isn't the case.

Oh I understand, and thanks for you're opinions. I really do appreciate it

I have some work ahead of me

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:19 pm

And by all means, please set the marks where the factory FSM shows them not what the Haynes manual tells you to.

Haganracing · Post by **Haganracing** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:31 pm

Ok, will do

Passt · Post by **Passt** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:43 pm

Let me know what the deal is. I'll come over to help.

2GN.ORG

Driving my car and the engine stopped on me.. Update #3

Driving my car and the engine stopped on me.. Update #3