Premium fuel and the R/T

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:33 pm

gtxtreme19 wrote:Just kind of a side note in our circle track car we use moth balls to increase octane rating,

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/c ... m00485.htm

I think I'll stick to E85.

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:23 pm

occasional demons wrote:Note I only added that much E85 to a near empty tank. If it doesn't run right, I can always add E10 gas. It has no noticeable difference with as much as 4 gallon to top off the tank.

I only did that to see how much it will handle. Filling the tank completely with E85 would be getting a little cocky, as draining it would be the only option, when things didn't work out.

It actually seemed to get better mileage, than when I only top off with E85. By rights, it should have done worse. But then again the partial throttle response was a bit more jumpy, so it may have equaled out.

Hey Bill,

I have had great results running a 1/4 tank of E-85, added to 93 octane E-10.

Try it sometime.... I bet the R/T PCM will love it.

- Nick

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:38 pm

That's basically what I've been doing, except I've used as much as 1/3 tank. (4 gallons) Playing with the range of available octane levels. It sucks tho that they have basically tied the price of E85 to the price of gasoline. It only runs $0.10 less per gallon here.

theColonel · Post by **theColonel** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:17 pm

DetergentCandy wrote:Premium guys. I know it's been said before, but come on.
At most, you'll be spending $.30 more per gallon on 93, than 87.
Do the math. That's $3 more to buy 93, than to buy 87. Is $3 really hurting your wallet?

My cars that require/recommend minimum 92 octane gasoline "feel better" with the premium fuel. When I consider what I pay for insurance and car payments .... $.20 or $.30 / gallon extra is peanuts !

vg30_s12 · Post by **vg30_s12** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:48 pm

ok, thanks for the replies, except the ones labeling me a cheap ass lol

after doing research (per the owners manual) it states for 2004 2.0l high performance motors
"Your engine is designed to meet all emission regulations and provide excellent fuel ecconomy and performance when using high quality unleaded gasoline having an octane rating of 91. The purchase of higher octane is not recommended."

"High quality unleaded gasoline having a minumum octane rating of 87 may safely be used for your vehicle. Use of these lower octane gasolines, however, may result in reduced acceleration performance."

all I wanted to know was, Can i use it safely? now if i had a SRT4, that would be a different story now that i know, i can get 87 and not worry about blowing up the motor

theColonel · Post by **theColonel** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:33 pm

vg30_s12 wrote: "High quality unleaded gasoline having a minumum octane rating of 87 may safely be used for your vehicle. Use of these lower octane gasolines, however, may result in reduced acceleration performance."

all I wanted to know was, Can i use it safely? now if i had a SRT4, that would be a different story now that i know, i can get 87 and not worry about blowing up the motor

You could experiment with middle grade gasoline ... I remember the cars of the early 90's that were recommended for 87 octane, but never ran well on the cheap crap.
When I used 89 octane, performance and gas mileage both improved, but the highest octane fuel didn't give any additional benefit.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:04 pm

vg30_s12 wrote:
"High quality unleaded gasoline having a minumum octane rating of 87 may safely be used for your vehicle. Use of these lower octane gasolines, however, may result in reduced acceleration performance."

Pretty much backs up what I posted previously. When there is a warranty involved, you can bet they cover all the bases.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:39 am

occasional demons wrote:
gtxtreme19 wrote:Just kind of a side note in our circle track car we use moth balls to increase octane rating,
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/c ... m00485.htm

I think I'll stick to E85.

Never put foreign objects into your gas

"Recomended" fuel is just that, It is recomended to use premium 91, but the manufacturer designed the pcm to be able to run midgrade or less since the average user may just put the cheap stuff in not knowing. The pcm will pull timing when the knock sensor sense's detonation. I would not recomend switching back and forth since the quality of the fuel may cause issues in the future.
And as other's have mentioned, $0.10 is one thing here in WNY I can get E85 for $2.40 a gallon where 93 octane is $3.40 a gallon, that's quite a difference weekly when it comes to filling my R/T's tank and my AF/X pcm really loves the E85 over 93...

Post by **racer12306** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:58 pm

BlackRoseRacing wrote:
occasional demons wrote:
gtxtreme19 wrote:Just kind of a side note in our circle track car we use moth balls to increase octane rating,
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/c ... m00485.htm

I think I'll stick to E85.
Never put foreign objects into your gas
"Recomended" fuel is just that, It is recomended to use premium 91, but the manufacturer designed the pcm to be able to run midgrade or less since the average user may just put the cheap stuff in not knowing. The pcm will pull timing when the knock sensor sense's detonation. I would not recomend switching back and forth since the quality of the fuel may cause issues in the future.
And as other's have mentioned, $0.10 is one thing here in WNY I can get E85 for $2.40 a gallon where 93 octane is $3.40 a gallon, that's quite a difference weekly when it comes to filling my R/T's tank and my AF/X pcm really loves the E85 over 93...

You can't forget to mention that you will burn more E85.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:03 pm

BlackRoseRacing wrote: Never put foreign objects into your ass

Plus E85 weighs more than gasoline.

theColonel · Post by **theColonel** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:29 pm

You can't forget to mention that you will burn more E85.

thank God we don't have E85 in New Orleans, but we have several oil refineries in the area.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:40 pm

laneholt wrote:
You can't forget to mention that you will burn more E85.
thank God we don't have E85 in New Orleans, but we have several oil refineries in the area.

It's not like anyone would be forcing you to use it. And from my experience with it, it really hasn't had a huge impact on fuel mileage, but then I have only went as far as 1/3 tank E85 to 2/3 tank E10 gasoline.

And I'd bet it works better than any fuel injection cleaner/octane boost on the market, and is far cheaper.

Post by **racer12306** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:40 pm

What's wrong with E85?

theColonel · Post by **theColonel** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:42 pm

racer12306 wrote:What's wrong with E85?

from Wikipedia

The use of E85 in standard gasoline engines may require some minor engine and fuel system adaptations, as the use of ethanol blends in conventional gasoline vehicles requires a different air/fuel ratio than conventional gasoline and can be corrosive, degrading some of the materials in the engine and fuel system in pre-1980s vehicles. Tuning the AFR along with adjusting the timing and compression ratio as compared to a gasoline engine is also desirable in order to take advantage of ethanol’s higher octane rating, thus allowing an improvement in performance and fuel efficiency and a reduction of tailpipe emissions.[1] Flexible fuel vehicles (FFV) in North America and Europe are designed to run on E85. Most standard engines can be adapted to run on E85 without any problems.

I have two Mopar FFV cars which are designed to run on E85 without damage: 03 Dodge Stratus, and 09 Dodge Avenger.

The local dealer service manager tells me that the cars in the midwest (corn belt states) where most of the ethanol is manufactured from corn, don't last as long or run as well. None of my cars have any problems with E10. I don't plan to use E85 as long as E10 or alcohol-free gasoline is available.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:13 pm

With the quality of today's oils/engine builds, I don't think it is as big of a factor as it was in the past. Engines were lucky to make it to 100,000 miles on gasoline just 30 years ago.

With injection being more efficient than carburetors there is much less chance for washdown of the cylinder walls. And there are prolly less combustion byproducts with E85, leaving far less deposits on the valves, so the guides/springs will have less stress on them. The combustion chambers will stay cleaner also. So it is likely an even trade off.

Old school thinking and modern tech don't always mix. I may be old school, but I am not needlessly stuck there.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:49 am

driving my R/T with 30lb/hr injectors and an AF/X R using E85, after a few weeks worth of daily driving (30miles average a day) the car started getting the same gas mileage as running 93octane premium fuel...

theColonel · Post by **theColonel** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:03 am

BlackRoseRacing wrote:driving my R/T with 30lb/hr injectors and an AF/X R using E85, after a few weeks worth of daily driving (30miles average a day) the car started getting the same gas mileage as running 93octane premium fuel...

What is the octane rating of the E85?

Post by **racer12306** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:09 am

I believe it's 104.

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:43 am

I have seen 108, but don't hold me to it. They don't post the rating on the pumps in my area. I guess since there is only one grade....

Edit:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... ratio.html

Swordfish2Cowboy · Post by **Swordfish2Cowboy** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:18 pm

There's no E85 around me.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:31 pm

Suckage.

Our new Giant Eagle/Get Go included two E85 pumps when they relocated.

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:30 pm

racer12306 wrote:I believe it's 104.

I want to say 110 ??

I'll wait for Erik to confirm.

occasional demons wrote:I have seen 108, but don't hold me to it. They don't post the rating on the pumps in my area. I guess since there is only one grade....

Edit:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... ratio.html

EDIT:
Never mind, I'm retarded.....

- Nick

Swordfish2Cowboy · Post by **Swordfish2Cowboy** » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:16 pm

occasional demons wrote:Suckage.

Our new Giant Eagle/Get Go included two E85 pumps when they relocated.

Eh, I'm not too upset. I like Shell.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:17 am

NickKo wrote:
racer12306 wrote:I believe it's 104.
I want to say 110 ??
I'll wait for Erik to confirm.
occasional demons wrote:I have seen 108, but don't hold me to it. They don't post the rating on the pumps in my area. I guess since there is only one grade....
Edit:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... ratio.html
EDIT:
Never mind, I'm retarded.....
- Nick

Yep, it seems 104 is going to be the main choice, unless they blend 89 or 92/93 with it, and that prolly ain't happening.

theColonel · Post by **theColonel** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:13 am

occasional demons wrote: Yep, it seems 104 is going to be the main choice, unless they blend 89 or 92/93 with it, and that prolly ain't happening.

If it's 85% ethanol, I don't think the octane rating of the "spoonful" of real gasoline will have much effect (good or bad) on the final blend.

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:40 am

My 2.4 gets 33mpg. I throw 87 in it all the time, and I don't have a knock sensor on it. I'm reckless. But it pulls like a raped ape on steroids for such a simple setup.

theColonel · Post by **theColonel** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:06 am

esteinmaier wrote:My 2.4 gets 33mpg. I throw 87 in it all the time, and I don't have a knock sensor on it. I'm reckless. But it pulls like a raped ape on steroids for such a simple setup.

I thought the 04 Dodge Neon SE had a 2.0 liter engine like the 05 Dodge Neon SXT, which specified 87 octane. I know that the normally aspirated 2.4 engines have a lot of low end torque, and specify 87 octane fuel. Did you swap motors for a Dodge Stratus 2.4 liter engine?

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:16 am

Yea, in the DD. The 04's engine is not really a comparable in this subject.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:47 pm

laneholt wrote:
If it's 85% ethanol, I don't think the octane rating of the "spoonful" of real gasoline will have much effect (good or bad) on the final blend.

Read the link in post 49. it will explain it in more detail than you wish to know.

theColonel · Post by **theColonel** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:09 pm

occasional demons wrote:
Read the link in post 49. it will explain it in more detail than you wish to know.

I read that link before .... pure ethanol has an octane rating of 115 which is greater than any "pump gasoline", but it requires more fuel/air which may reduce inlet air temperatures .... it could possibly be better than gasoline for turbocharged/supercharged engines.