'00 trans shudder

[Guard1an]

well I was driving home last night, and when i put the car in drive and went to drive off (light acceleration) the car shuddered slightly, never missed a fluid change (every 15,000 ). doesn't do it when the car down shifts, just initial acceleration from a dead stop. And its still acting up, just seeking some insist on where to start,

-Mike

[occasional demons]

Every 15,000 on the ATF, or motor oil? When were the spark plugs/wires last changed?

Is it a shudder in the transmission, or is it like the engine is missing?

Edit: Just trying to get a better Idea. Not too many ppl change the ATX fluid that often. Sometimes engine output can affect how the torque converter acts. It seems like possible converter shudder, but bad plugs might cause a similar symptom. Just so you don't take it that I think you are clueless. After reading my response, I thought I better re word it.

[racer12306]

Might be a long shot, but what type of trans fluid are you using?

[occasional demons]

That too.

The lock up solenoid may also be screwing up. It shouldn't be attempting to lock up, until you are out of 1st gear anyways. IDK if it would even lock up in anything but 3rd in the 31th.

Most times that is when TC shudder happens, when it is drifting between lock and unlock conditions. That should not be happening at initial take off.

[Guard1an]

no I change the oil every 3,000 (royal purple 5W-30 full syn have ever since I owned her ((well mom owned her then gave her to me but i maintained her ))) I know its a little more often then most would but I do alot of driving, like 3,000ish miles in 2 months, so I figure better to be safe than sorry, and its with ATF+4, plugs were changed 3 weeks ago, changed the wires at the same time (OE wires on car) but as soon as i changed them, got a miss, retuned said shitty wires, reinstalled the OE beasts and miss was gone. Its weird though since when the trans kicks down, no shudder, I power braked it earlier, brought the rpms up as high as they'll go in drive, and let off the brake and continued to mash the gas with very little shudder. going to raise the front tomorrow and do a tranny service, and pray theres no metal in the pan like chunky metal.........
btw the car has been in the family since '06 56,000 and now has almost 110,000, I can guareentee its not a ignition issue, swapped out plugs for the old ones, same problem,

-Mike

[occasional demons]

Try unplugging the lock up solenoid connector. (I'm not 100% the '00 has the electric tho. It might just be the '01 31th)

If it is electric, there should be a connector near the shift selector shaft. If not, then it is hydraulically activated lock up. But anyways, if it is electric, you can disable the lock up to see if the shudder goes away. If it is hydraulic, I'm not sure there is a simple way to keep it from going into lock up. With that many miles, it could just be the TC is going bad, or the clutches are chattering.

Was the original ATF 7176, or +4? I don't recall when they changed it. Not that it matters, I doubt 7176 is even available.

[Guard1an]

never even heard of 7176, book calls for +4 (FSM (lucky enough to have scored the whole set for dirt cheap) and the owners guide),

-Mike

[occasional demons]

Must have been right around '99/'00. I think my brother's '99 van was 7176. It was the fluid between DexronIII and +4

[racer12306]

I don't think the 3 speeds ever had a +4 recommendation. They just had the +3 recommendation. The 4 speeds brought on the +4 recommendation.

[occasional demons]

Hmmm, I missed +3 along the way. The Sundance Duster/Shadow's have the 7176 recommendation on the dipsticks. But that was before the "Plus" variety was an option. Just don't know exactly when the switch was made. I never had an issue with either of the 41te's using 7176. And they are still failing with +4. I think it is more of a durability factor, than what fluid is used, in the 40te. The 31th should be compatible with most fluids, barring the TC lock up clutch. Shudder was a problem with the Dexron varieties, so the 7176 was developed to address that issue. I'm not sure it was 100% effective tho.

The true solution would be either locked, or not. No inbetween, (so the driver doesn't notice when it engages). I kind of liked when it felt like that 4th shift in a 3 speed.
IMHO, if you want seamless shifting, get a CVT.

[Jamie]

the 2000 does have an electric lockup selonoid. its a little two pin plug on the side of the trans facing the front of the car, aimed at the PCM. It should come on in 3rd only and above 2500, or about 50mph if I remember correctly (mine is on a switch with RMVB). The shuddering could either be the TC about to fail initally or possible the low gear clutch pack slipping/chattering.

when my stock trans blew out second, it suddered a small bit and then finally slipped completely until it went to third gear. The TC is pretty beefy, well the 3spd is pretty beefy in general so it could be just a simple band adjustment also. good luck

[Guard1an]

well since I am doing a a tranny service ( filter and fluid ) today how hard would it be to tighten the clutch band while the pan is off ?? ...........*checking manual now....*

-Mike

[occasional demons]

Bands aren't too bad to adjust, you just need the proper torque wrench. Or you could wing it, and go by feel. Just check the travel of the arm after you back it off the specified number of turns. If it is too loose, as in the arm has to move alot to tighten the band, you may want to tighten it a little. Sometimes the correct way is wrong. What you want to look for is how far the servo piston will have to travel. If it goes too far to move the lever/arm, the angle of the lever will cock the servo piston, and break it. I have had this problem on a 727 TF. It was a guessing game of getting the band loose enough to keep from wearing it/dragging, without it being so loose the servo piston would break. This was something I had to come up with on my own, as all the trans shops that had this issue of the reverse band servo breaking, just replaced the transmission. It isn't like it was rocket science once I started watching what was happening.

IMHO, a better method would be a measurement of servo travel, than torquing to "X" inch pounds, and backing off "X" number of turns.

[Guard1an]

Just found in the FSM that there could be several different causes of shudder,

1.) a worn or damaged inner tripod joint ( the part of the CV axle that goes into the transaxle)

2.) a sticking tripod joint spider assembly (inner tripod joint only)

3.)Improper wheel alignment (not the case, car tracks straight as an arrow)

also it says that the band adjustments are made on the top front of the case, yea easy access,

and yes as per the manual and I quote "Mopar ATF+4 (automatic transmission fluid type 9602) is required in this transaxle (31TH). substitute fluids must meet fluid specification MS-9602.

true true, btw low reverse is 3 1/2 turns backed off from 41in lbs, I have a click style torque wrench, how much servo travel should there be ??

[occasional demons]

I don't doubt you on the fluid. It was pretty much used in everything, except import transmissions, and PS pumps at the time. I would just unplug the solenoid, and see what happens. That is going to be the easiest part to eliminate/confirm. You can run without it, but fuel mileage will suffer, and a cooler would be recommended, as it will run hotter due to the TC not locking. Long term, it would cost more than fixing it tho.

The thing that gets me, is the AW4 (Toyota) in the Jeep uses DexronIIE/III, and there is no trouble with the TC lock up. There shouldn't be any with an on/off solenoid either. I doubt they modulate it like the newer stuff, for a partial to full engagement. Unless the clutch is worn enough to slip...

[Guard1an]

well its weird, first start of the day, shits and giggles, tried the acceleration test, dead stop to smash the gas and the shudder was barely there, tried the test 2 more times and the shudder is all but gone, now I am wondering if it was just a "rough" spot on one of the clutch packs, or on the band itself

[occasional demons]

See, it is just getting old, and developing some character.

[r/tguy02]

[Guard1an]

yea well we'll see tonight, I will see if a temperature ie day to night may make the difference, who knows we'll see

[Guard1an]

well once it was "cold" 8hours to stone cold, tried, shudder is still there, still nasty as fuck, it shakes the whole front end, I'm going to have to go with a torque converter issue........ but its weird, when the car is hot and been driven for awhile the problem goes sort of away, but from cold its a shudder mess, well now the question is do I just replace the TC or swap the 5spd I always wish she had,

-Mike

[Jamie]

thats really up to you. the cost of a tc is much less than the whole swap. a good clutch is going to be about the same as a stock tc if not more. so you would still need all of the other parts like trans, pedals, axle, cables... etc.

all depends on what your wanting to do with it really...

[occasional demons]

So, did you try unplugging the solenoid connector for giggles?

Granted it shouldn't be trying to lock at take off, but who's to say there isn't a intermittent short in your wiring telling it to come on.

Tho it would prolly stall the engine at a light, if it engaged.

[racer12306]

Hmmm, I missed +3 along the way. The Sundance Duster/Shadow's have the 7176 recommendation on the dipsticks. But that was before the "Plus" variety was an option. Just don't know exactly when the switch was made. I never had an issue with either of the 41te's using 7176. And they are still failing with +4. I think it is more of a durability factor, than what fluid is used, in the 40te. The 31th should be compatible with most fluids, barring the TC lock up clutch. Shudder was a problem with the Dexron varieties, so the 7176 was developed to address that issue. I'm not sure it was 100% effective tho.

The true solution would be either locked, or not. No inbetween, (so the driver doesn't notice when it engages). I kind of liked when it felt like that 4th shift in a 3 speed.
IMHO, if you want seamless shifting, get a CVT.

I think +3 is 7176.

[occasional demons]

Might be, but the gallon jugs I had from the dealer just had the 7176 on them, nothing with +3. I think I might remember seeing +3 on store shelves now tho.

[NickKo]

well once it was "cold" 8hours to stone cold, tried, shudder is still there, still nasty as fuck, it shakes the whole front end, I'm going to have to go with a torque converter issue........ but its weird, when the car is hot and been driven for awhile the problem goes sort of away, but from cold its a shudder mess, well now the question is do I just replace the TC or swap the 5spd I always wish she had,

-Mike

I don't think that trans shudder is normally associated with torque converter issues, but rather with clutch pack / band issues. (Unless I am mistaken)

Maybe this is the excuse you need, to upgrade to a 5-spd. ??

- Nick

[Guard1an]

haven't unplugged the selinoid yet, busy ass day ( being in the NAVY will do it to ya), will try tomorrow since its pretty late (almost 930pm god i'm getting old) and i need to get some sleep,

-Mike

[MrCii]

i had something similar happen to mine before my trans went out.... it felt like the car was kinda like 'bunny hopping' under any acceleration from a stop, once it was moving it was fine...