Late 2002 models and Computers

[drsokol]

I'm just wondering if its possible that i have NGC in my late 2002 ES. It was badged an SXT and had the sxt options that didnt officially start until the 2003 model year. Is it possible that they implemented the NGC computer early? Is there any evidence that it is strictly 2003 model year and later?

[slaw]

i know they made sxt's pre 03 but they are non ngc
what options are u refering to?

[drsokol]

just it being badged an sxt, having body color hvac bezel, solar yellow color, but when i had the car insured and everything it shows up as an ES and not an SXT

[ZeroChad]

It seems that 1/2 the 2002s I see are SXT trim with the spoiler.

[drsokol]

thats the kind i have but i guess got thrown off by the insurance company telling me they didn't make an sxt in '02 and other places ive seen with neon specifics not showing the sxt trim line until 2003

[03blackrt]

The 6th digit of the vin indicates what model it is. In 2002 a "5" in this place indicated an ES/SXT/LX. The insurance company won't be able to tell exactly what model it is and therefore likely calls all 2002 Neons with a 5 an "ES".

Also, just because it's badged as a SXT doesn't mean it is an SXT. Maybe it was hit in the trunk and someone replaced the trunk with one from an SXT? Badges are just badges.



I would think the engine computer would likely be a federal emissions thing, and therefore it wasn't a gradual change, but rather changed exactly when the model year changed over.

[occasional demons]

I also wouldn't rely on the insurance company's description either. Especially if it involves a settlement. Have a dealer run your VIN, and they will tell you exactly what trim/PCM you have. Or you could try PM'ing BlackRoseRacing, and ask him f he would run your VIN.

FWIW, the '02 pcm's seem to be more touchy than the '01, but it is not NGC by any means.

If you look at your engine block, if there is a sensor (Crank) at the flywheel end near the starter, it is NGC. If the crank sensor is above the oil filter, it is non NGC. No way it has an NGC pcm if the crank sensor is near the oil filter. The cranks have two different signals, that are not compatible.

[drsokol]

alright thanks for the good info. I know badges are just badges but part of the sxt package was body color hvac bezel as well which i have

[occasional demons]

I know badges are just badges

QFT

My aunt's '87 Shadow had Sundance badges on the interior.

[drsokol]

what are the 2002 pcm's more picky about compared to the 2001?

[ZeroChad]

The knock sensor code is more sensitive.

[occasional demons]

The crank signal.

If you install a UDP, the added oscillations from the lack of a damper will give you a P0300 code/CEL. Mine mainly gave a p0302, but occasionally, I would get a 0300.

There is no way to fool the PCM either. I even made a circuit to set the low fuel light to flashing, which will tell the PCM to ignore misfires caused by low fuel in the tank. (Per the FSM)

It wouldn't flash the CEL or set a code, until the following start up. As soon as the engine would fire, the chime would go off, and the CEL illuminates.

There may be other things, but I haven't found them yet. But to my knowledge, no one has had that problem in any other year.
NGC doesn't have it because the sensor is at the flywheel end, where it is very stable. Not sure why they even located it at the damper end to begin with. Most engines have the crank trigger at/in the flywheel/flexplate. (if one is used)

[drsokol]

alright thanks, i didnt plan to install an udp as i have a kicker sound system installed and dont want the extra strain on the alternator with the system already drawing more power, and i also dont want to go through the hassle of an over drive pulley on the alternator to install one

[racer12306]

There were definitely 2002 SXTs built. There are a few on here and my sister has one.

[Donkeypuncher]

I did find 1 or 2 very late year 02's that had the 03+ exterior that were NGC, but never seen one with 02 style bumpers/taillights that were. They were listed as 03 neons, but the build date was in december of 02.

[occasional demons]

It all comes down to what the emissions label on the hood says for model year specifications, ie:"This vehicle meets emissions requirements for 2003 model year", or w/e year.

[drsokol]

alright that clears up my thoughts, i know car companies sometimes change things mid model year and just wanted to make sure that wasnt a change instituted early

[racer12306]

I did find 1 or 2 very late year 02's that had the 03+ exterior that were NGC, but never seen one with 02 style bumpers/taillights that were. They were listed as 03 neons, but the build date was in december of 02.

And that's a very common situation.

There have been cars build as early as March of say 2007, that were actually 2008 model year vehicles.

It all comes down to what the emissions label on the hood says for model year specifications, ie:"This vehicle meets emissions requirements for 2003 model year", or w/e year.

Bingo.

alright that clears up my thoughts, i know car companies sometimes change things mid model year and just wanted to make sure that wasnt a change instituted early

That does happen, but such a drastic change as this would not happen mid year. The changes that happened from 2002 to 2003 are a lower compression ratio, new wiring harnesses, new computer, and a few other things. That's some pretty intense changes for a mid year change.

[03blackrt]

I did find 1 or 2 very late year 02's that had the 03+ exterior that were NGC, but never seen one with 02 style bumpers/taillights that were. They were listed as 03 neons, but the build date was in december of 02.

The beginning/end of the calendar year doesn't necessarily coincide with the beginning/end of the MODEL YEAR. So there could be no 2002 models built in December 2002, all depending on the model switchover dates.

[drsokol]

i understand that part, just wondering what changes may have been implemented mid model year

[OB]

A simple way to end this discussion would be to simply crawl under the car and see if the crank position sensor is in the normal 00-02 location, on the bottom front of the engine. Though I do agree that it is almost certainly not NGC.

[sidepipe87]

definitely made SXTs in 02, probably the ones built later as the early 02 ones were still ES. 02 had solar yellow anyway so that's indicative of nothing.

[darthroush]

How late in 2002 are you talking? My '03 was built in August of 2002.

[drsokol]

mine was built in June of 02

[Forest Green 2k]

Heh, I was actually wondering the same thing as the op cuz I saw a decent 02 black sxt for sale a couple days ago and was thinking if it had NGC.

[drsokol]

mine was built in June of 02

[esteinmaier]

The 02 SXT is an important car. If I remember right, it's the only flame red car you can get a take-off shorty basket handle wing.

[SXTwolfe]

alright so since this is on the topic of the NGC i have a question. i've started reading about it and everything but there are alot of conflict on what it actually does. is it a good thing bad thing or what is going on. i know that my car is def going to have it as its the 2003SXT. are there ways to be rid of it? or should i just leave it be?

[esteinmaier]

NGC = Next Generation Computer. It is the computer that runs your engine. It's a rather good thing, as if you get rid of it, the car doesn't run. You can replace it with a programmable computer, but only do that if the existing computer doesn't do what you need it to do.

[ZeroChad]

Most ppl burn off NGC with a match or propane torch and their car runs better.







In the real world. It actually maintains a much better mpg than the older ecu due to the wideband 02 reading, and closer monitoring of sensors.