3SPD ATX Giving out... can I swap to 4spd?

GTS · Post by **GTS** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:34 am

Hey guys, did a bit of searching but so far no luck.

I have a 2001 Neon ATX 3SPD hydrauling gearobx...

Now the car has 85000mi and all the sudden it lost 2nd gear... so I did the front screw adjustment and got the second gear back...

But now first to second gear shift is bumpy n 2-3 is smooth.

There is another adjustment in the trans itself which I plan to do too but the problem is the car has a strange rattle almost like metal part is loose and just shakes inside the trans..

Its obvious when its cold and you put it in reverse.. its not present in the forward gears but you can also hear it when its in idle in park or Neutral...

any idea what that may be? it appeared after the adjustment... and almost feels like the trans is gonna fall apart any moment.

As far as the 4spd swap what all do I need to accomplish that, and is it even worth it?

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:49 am

The short answer would be No.

4spd ATX's have a separate TCM controller (apart from the PCM.)
Not to mention, the PCM's are different, too.

I suppose it may be possible *in theory* to do this, but you'd have to also swap over the associated harnesses, and PCM + TCM combo.

Now, since your car is non-NGC (pre-2003), this would preclude you from using a PCM + TCM combo from a 2003-up Neon.
Then, you'd be looking at swapping over to a 2003+ 'NCG' engine, along with the associated harnesses, as well.

- Nick

Post by **racer12306** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:07 pm

Damnit, I posted in the duplicate that I deleted

This is what I posted:

racer12306 wrote:You would need a way to control it since it's electronic.

I don't know how the racers are controlling their 41TE unless they are finding a way to covert it to be a manual shift.

Something that may work is switch to an 02 ATX PCM since the 02s came with the 41TE 4 speed. There would be potential issues with the SKIM.

In the end, it may be better to just go with another 3 speed. The cost to swap to a streetable 4 speed may not be worth it.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:53 pm

With a pin out fotr the '02 TCM, it could possibly be spliced into the outputs for the needed sensors to work. IDK what exactly if much at all has changed from the mid 90's V6 TCM's but there isn't a ton of inputs needed, linking the PCM to the TCM.

You would need the connectors/related wiring from the donor 41te though, as the VSS and other stuff is different. The part I am not sure on, is if the 3 speed PCM would recognize the VSS input to send it to the cluster.

GTS · Post by **GTS** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:40 pm

Well sounds like I will have to fix the 3spd... and stick with that... I had a feeling that it would be very complicated.

Now the 3 speed lost 2nd gear, it would accelerate in 1st to very high RPMs no way to get it to shift to second... then it would feel as if it was slipping and then bump to 3rd gear, and if you did WOT it would jump back to 1st...

The issue was fixed with teh adjuster of the front band the one outside the case....
But since the adjust I have some sort of wining noise as if something is rubbing against something and thats in reverse, or in idle on park...

What could be causing that? I need to adjust the second band but for that I have to drop the pan as well!

I will try that and report back!

Post by **occasional demons** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:53 pm

You could unhook the kick down cable from the TB, if it loses 2nd again. It will directly shift from 1st to 3rd. It would suck if you needed passing gear above 30 mph tho.

Not sure what is causing the whine, unless the band is too tight.

GTS · Post by **GTS** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:12 pm

SO tonight I opened the oil pan to do the trans adjusterment... and I found bits n pieces fro the inside, looks like some clutches fell out... not sure what the deal is but Im due for a new trans the old one has a ton of shavings... 2000mi ago when I changed the oil there were next to none... so idk what happened but its shot...

Funny thing is it still shifts etc.. drives fine but makes rattling noises...

So i am putting her out of commission until I figure out what to do... new trans or rebuilt one.

GTS · Post by **GTS** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:45 pm

SOLUTION FOUND!!!

Just picked up a 3TH ATX from a 1995 NEON, brand new 0-mile has been sitting on a shelf for 15 years tho...

So I may need to replace few seals, new filter... etc.. but its new and the sweet part is its 3.24 Final Drive, compared to the stock 2.98... so that should make it a lot faster off the line.

Car already has RT Manifold. Iceman CAI, few other things done to it... so I am expecting a sweet gain from this mod...

Cost of the trans was 250+107$ shipping.. so for under 400$ I will have it up and running again as soon as next weekend.

Trans should be here on wednesday

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:39 pm

your old trani:
1 - drop the pan and valve body
2 - Adjust the bands to spec
3 - do the old school valve body mods
4 - reassemble
5 - try it
as for using a trani thats been sitting, remember this, clutches and seals dry out and become unstable. The 15 year old trani that may be never used can be just as bad as your current trani....

GTS · Post by **GTS** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:44 pm

I dropped the pan on the current trans and the fluid inside was milky pink... looked just like strawberry shake from mcdonalds... and thats probably due to the accident I had in the summer when the radiator broke and shoved all the antifreeze in the trans...
Also some pieces of what looked like a clutch of some sort were laying freely in the trans above the valve body, so its shot... not much can be done at this point.

As for the new trans, I am afraid that it may be old but I will take my chances with it. I know its been stored in a temperature controlled warehouse, and not exposure to sun light or any extremes... so I hope its gonna be in the condition that I expect it to be in.

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:57 pm

GTS wrote:I dropped the pan on the current trans and the fluid inside was milky pink... looked just like strawberry shake from mcdonalds... and thats probably due to the accident I had in the summer when the radiator broke and shoved all the antifreeze in the trans...
Also some pieces of what looked like a clutch of some sort were laying freely in the trans above the valve body, so its shot... not much can be done at this point.

As for the new trans, I am afraid that it may be old but I will take my chances with it. I know its been stored in a temperature controlled warehouse, and not exposure to sun light or any extremes... so I hope its gonna be in the condition that I expect it to be in.

Please let us know how it goes.

- Nick

GTS · Post by **GTS** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:48 pm

Gearbox is swapped... car drives like new except its much faster... I guess there was a big difference in gear change... going from stock gears to the 3:24... not bad, 1st gear is much better... and in general the car is better now.

Old trans still worked except the noises it made and the bits in the oil pan so it had to go.

THE OLD ONE...

And the new one...

And my current daily driver...

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:36 pm

So you are sure the heat exchanger in your current radiator is good?

I am impressed if it lasted that long with coolant in the oil, and on Dec. 9th, you made no mention of pink fluid. If you are still mixing fluids, your new trans will be shot soon too.

GTS · Post by **GTS** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:41 pm

We replaced the radiator with a new one... and then did a few coolant flushes trying to get rid as much of the coolant as possible.

However some does remain in the torque converter so after every flush only a given % was replaced... unfortunately I think the band on the drum holding 2nd gear poped out... strangely enough it was still drivable...

I knew it was gonna cause problems down the road but what can you do...

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:54 pm

An old trick was to drill a hole in the TC, and use a sealed rivet to plug the hole. But the 2.0 flexplate design makes that a little tough to do in the car.

GTS · Post by **GTS** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:01 pm

I looked at it from a couple prospectives.

I was thinking of removing the trans cleaning it out maybe replacing couple bands and reinstalling it.. however you need some tools etc to do that you still have to remove an reinstall the trans... I have limited availability to lift etc... and even after re-installation theres no guarantee the problem is fixed...

Second option was to go to a repair shop and pay them to rebuild it... however that cost something like 1300$ quoted... and also half the bolts on the old one are stripped thanks to some irresponsible mechanics at the dealer...

Total cost so far.. 250$ for the trans... 100$ shipping, and 90$ for the new TQ converter... 40$ for synthetic ATF+4...

So 480$... not bad and 3 hrs labor FREE$... and I bet I can sell the old ones to someone and make some cash...

I think I picked the best route...

Last thing is the car drives like new and its much quicker now!...

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:15 pm

I am not disagreeing with you at all. Without a good way to drain the TC, you would have spent $100 on fluid at $5/quart to get it flushed properly.

But given the track record of in tank coolers lately, I would still get an external cooler, and call it a day.

GTS · Post by **GTS** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:37 pm

That would be very simple... I have an external cooler on the car but it runs through the OEM one, then through the external one... so all I have to do is reroute the hoses... and cap the oem one...

I guess I will do that this weekend... simple enough!