To all Prothane users - read up

[jonnymopar]

I installed a set of Prothane front control arm bushings a couple years ago. Within the past few months, I've been developing a "wandering" while driving the car. It was especially bad when I was driving in a curve. If I was on the gas and then let off, the car would change direction. NOT good. Well, here's what I found:

Rear bushing:



Front bushing:



Look at the amount of space between the metal sleeve and the bushing inner diameter! Those control arms could move all around! At first, I ordered the Energy Suspension set because I was less than impressed with the Prothane set. I couldn't get the Energy Suspension set in. Count me in for another hapless Neon owner that hates ES.

Here's a comparison: old bushing/sleeve vs. new bushing/sleeve



Look at this!! New:



Old:


The metal sleeve that Prothane supplied with their bushing set got rusty and ended up literally filing the inner diameter of the bushing 3/32" oversize. If you're using Prothanes, check your bushings if you have the control arms out for any reason, especially if you're somewhere with harsh winters like I am. I'm guessing it's road salt that did that.

[NickKo]

Thanks for the tip, Jonny..... I will be doing this soon.


I wonder if there is a better 'sleeve material' that can be used, while everything is still apart ??



- Nick

[DR. GONZO]

So what brand of bushing are you running now? I have a set of es bushing that I have yet too install but I no longer drive my car in the winter thanks the new used winter beater

[jonnymopar]

To make sleeves, I'd say use one of the harder stainless steel alloys, but you'd have to machine them yourself since it's not a standard pipe size.

What am I running now? *cringe* I'm running the Energy Suspension front bushing and the Prothane rear bushing. The Energy Suspension looks like it uses the same mystery steel for the inner sleeve, but the fit was tighter than the Prothane, so I used those. As for the rear bushing, I didn't really have a choice.

I tried a different lubrication as well. I put PolyBushings control arm bushings in my Daytona and they give you a ton of this crazy bright green lubrication to go with it. I used what I had left over on the new bushings instead of the Prothane lube. The other stuff apparently washes away. When I took the front bushings out, the lube was still between the bushing and the control arm itself, but it was totally gone between the bushing and that inner metal sleeve.

I might take some time when the weather gets nicer and make some new sleeves out of alloy 440C stainless steel which can be hardened. Then I'll know they're good for life.

[Caraudioholic24]

ES FTW!!!

[Jenni]

After a few years you should not wonder if naked metal parts under the car are rusted and rubber bushings are worn.

Just install a new set...

[jonnymopar]

If ES ever takes the time to re-evaluate the durometers used on their Neon control arm bushing set, I will use ES. I liked their vertical bushing design much better, but they need to get their heads out of their asses, use the correct durometers, and design it so the interference fit is correct. I had the same problem as almost everyone else: when I was actually able to get the vertical bushing assembled and installed, it either partially popped out during re-assembly or partially popped out during driving! The center section of the vertical bushing was a HUGE problem.

Since this is a car that was discontinued over 5 years ago, I highly doubt that will ever happen.

Just install a new set...

That was my only choice. The car feels great now.

[occasional demons]

The front bushings should be tight as f*ck like the ES. No contaminants will ever get in there.

The control arm doesn't move enough to really have a need for the bushing to actually turn. It will flex enough to let the arm articulate as needed. The OEM rubber bushings don't turn free on the sleeve, so why would the poly ones need to?

I would go with the ES front, and PT rear, if you still have the ES set.

Of course if you wanted the ultimate in free movement, you could modify it so ball bearing sets could be installed. But GL getting them to last in real world conditions. You would prolly increase road noise substantially too.

[Canada]

Try driving in Jasons' white car with the Machfly spherical bushings installed in the LCAs...

Clack clack clack clack lol. But the feedback in the steering is insane...

[fixitmattman]

He needs new bearings if it's making that much noise. I made my own spherical setup and it's the same as stock. Big bumps always transmit chassis noise, but regular driving should be no noiser than stock. When it's clack clack clack it's new bearing time. Normally I get about 2 years out of a set, that includes use in our super awesome salty and sandy Canadian roads.

[occasional demons]

Are the front/horizontal "bushings" a solid bearing, or are they just left as poly/stock?

I know the '70's era Mopars were basically a solid set up, but they put thick rubber pillow blocks between the unibody and the subframe to reduce NVH. Cast iron replacements were sold in the Direct Connection catalog to replace them for better handling. Not sure if they really did much, other than add weight to the car.

For those that aren't familiar with them, they were about an inch thick and aprox. 3" x 5" A good chunk of metal. I personally would have just eliminated the pad, made some linkage adjustments, and been done.

[fixitmattman]

I left mine as stock rubber. For stock it's plenty solid enough, much mor solid than the stock rear, and provides a bit of give when you don't stop for railway tracks or feel like taking curbs head on.

[Mid Life Crisis]

Are the Prothane easier to install than the ES bushings?

[occasional demons]

Yes, from the general consensus.

I didn't have too much trouble with the ES, but then I had the whole crossmember out of the car when I installed them. (I replaced the crossmember due to rust)

[jonnymopar]

I would go with the ES front, and PT rear, if you still have the ES set.

I'm running the Energy Suspension front bushing and the Prothane rear bushing.

It was actually kind of nice having both sets brand new right in front of me to compare. That's why I ended up combining them like I did. Even though I ended up blowing almost 90 F-ing dollars by the time I was done.

The inner diameter of the Prothane pivot bushings has small grooves running from end to end. I'm guessing they did this for lubrication retention. Unfortunately, that may have been the downfall if contaminants got into those grooves. The ES ones had a smooth inner diameter and a nice tight fit when installed, so I chose those.

Are the Prothane easier to install than the ES bushings?

Yep, Prothane is much easier.

[Pablodragon]

just taking a step back from all the tech talk...

just wondering... so the Prothane bushings last the same as the rubber? ( had a mechanic friend tell me don't waste the extra money on those, he replaces just as many of those as stock, in the same periods of time)

Just frustrated that I had my LCA bushings replaced 2 years ago..and had them checked just recently and gues what?...they are bad again!

I consider myself old and have been thru a number of cars... don't ever remember any car I had to replace suspension bushings like this every 2 years?!?..

Is the Neon that badly designed that I have to do this every 2 years?

[OB]

Bushing life has everything to do with conditions. Salt and rust will always wear almost any moving part on a car faster than normal road conditions. Urethane bushings are much stiffer than stock rubber ones, so they require periodic lubrication. Not doing this will significantly lower their life span. Keeping them clean and free from grime will also help. Regarding pablo's post, people don't necessarily install urethane bushings to get more life out of them. The reason for using them is to decrease deflection under load, thus increasing steering response and feel. These are a performance modification, and like many hardcore suspension mods, require much more involved maintenance as well as an implied lower life expectancy.

I've had Prothane bushings front to back on my car for close to two years now, and they were in great shape last time I checked. Since I put less than 10k miles on my car a year, I haven't had to worry about much in the way of maintenance. Living in sunny CA is also a huge plus.

[Pablodragon]

thanx for the info on the Prothane parts... I thought I could get more life out of the parts, but now I understand about the performance mod...

Bushing life has everything to do with conditions. Salt and rust will always wear almost any moving part on a car faster than normal road conditions. ....

This one is still a mystrey to me... I have pretty much lived in either Ohio or Michigan my whole life...you know, where there is SALT and RUST... and even with my parents cars and my cars, all daily drivers this is the first car I've had that requires a suspension part to be replaced and wears out every 2 years... still sounds like shit design....

[OB]

Yeah the front a-arm design as a whole is pretty poor. Having two horizontal bushings would be ideal. However, I've seen cars around here go years and years without having a failure, which contradicts the idea that the design is the sole cause. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the poor design is considerably more apparent when the vehicle is used in certain (snow/salt) conditions.

[occasional demons]

With the oem type, it is more of how well the rubber bushing holds up. They tend to break down, just like the engine torque struts, except they are smaller, and have prolly much more stress. The rubber tears away from the bushing case most of the time.

Rough roads, and hard braking/acceleration will also shorten their lifespan. If they had a tension strut like the rear, they might last longer, but that would be one more set of bushings to wear out.

I have to agree with Derek, the two horizontal bushings would have been better. I never had an issue with either the Omnis' or Shadows I owned. But the LCA's on those are extremely heavy compared to the neon's. More unsprung weight.

[fixitmattman]

This one is still a mystrey to me... I have pretty much lived in either Ohio or Michigan my whole life...you know, where there is SALT and RUST... and even with my parents cars and my cars, all daily drivers this is the first car I've had that requires a suspension part to be replaced and wears out every 2 years... still sounds like shit design....

Because it is. Every car I know of that has a design like the neon's goes through similar intervals.

[jonnymopar]

I never had an issue with either the Omnis' or Shadows I owned. But the LCA's on those are extremely heavy compared to the neon's. More unsprung weight.

Amen to that. I love the design on the 89-93 cars with the dual pivot setup. But you're right about the weight.

Just a comment about the stockers: I had my car lowered 2" and was using the stock rubber lca bushings for the first 111k miles. This Neon is my daily driver and it's seen every winter here in MA since it was new. With all that said, the stock bushings were perfect when I decided to upgrade to polyurethane. I wouldn't say that I'm kicking myself for going to poly, but my stockers held up flawlessly under conditions that were NOT friendly whatsoever to my suspension.

I'm installing stainless sleeves in the spring. We'll see how those hold up.

[Danteneon]

I know the '70's era Mopars were basically a solid set up, but they put thick rubber pillow blocks between the unibody and the subframe to reduce NVH. Cast iron replacements were sold in the Direct Connection catalog to replace them for better handling. Not sure if they really did much, other than add weight to the car.

Not that it is a part of the Neon bushing topic, but I did install a set of the metal "bushings" in my 74 Road Runner. The difference was amazing! The slop in the stock set-up was horrible. I miss that car

As far as the topic at hand, I guess I'm lucky. While the ES control arm bushings were a serious PITA to install, they have been problem free for almost two years now. Granted, I don't drive the ACR that much I'm very interested to see if DCR will come out with their tubular adjustable LCA. Do want.