100% at a loss. Car dies while driving.

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:59 pm

Wow, this turned out to be real long. For those who do not want to read it all, read the first part five times.

2003 SXT, 120,000 miles, ATX.

I can not figure out at all what is going on with this car. Its been to the dealer three times in the past week. The first time this is what happened.

I was driving, early morning about 5 miles from my house, and the car lost acceleration and was sputtering real bad. It sounded like it was on two cylinders and the exhaust was coming out with the sound of a big block with a huge cam. CEL came on for a second or two then turned off. The trans shifted HARD. Each shift rocked the entire car and jerked me forward. I was able to get to a turn lane and the car died right there. I believe the oil light was the only light on once the car died. I sat there and tried to crank it over but it never turned. I thought it was the timing belt. The tow truck came and brought it to the dealer. Two days later the dealer called saying the my car had multiple misfires and the timing skipped a tooth. Just before all this, as I tried to start the car in the am, it cranked for at least five seconds before turing over.

Great, fix it. Here are all the parts you will need. I picked up the car, $1200 bill, six days later and drove it 38 fault free miles. Thats when I felt the engine start to sputter and die again, early morning again. I pulled over and turned it off. Tow truck came again and brought it back to the dealer. This time I noticed the car had trouble starting before I left my house. The dealer gave me a rental and 5 days later they called to tell me nothing was wrong with it. It started fine hot and cold. WTF?!

I picked up the car and drove it 8 miles, night time, and guess what... I felt it about to die again. This time I took out my cell and made a video of the car dying. The lights go dim, the engine sputters real bad, there is no acceleration and it will not shift. I got the car to the shoulder and it sounded REAL bad, it then just died. No CEL but oil light came on. I called for another tow again and brought it back to the dealer. When I got there the driver started the car to get it off the truck. It started fine. I ran to the front to pick up the rental I just dropped off and came back to grab my stuff from the car. I smelled something horrible, like burning wires. I asked my friend to smell it and he agreed. We popped the hood and the smell got real bad. I parked the car and left it the for the night.

The next day I came to the dealership and showed the tech and the service guy my video. They were confused but looked at me like, what the #$%^ do you want us to do?! They told me since there is no CEL that they could not do anything for me. I told them, there is something broken, this is the EXACT problem I brought it in for the first time. They told me the first time you had codes, oh by the way I did the key flick and each time (it died) I did it I never got codes, misfire codes and that the timing was off. Well each time it died it did this. I told the tech that it only happens when you drive the car. They only started it the last time. The tech said that since there is no CEL he does not know what to do. I said, come with me for a drive and watch it happen. They said no, we dont want to pay for another tow and who knows when it would happen. I said I'll drive around the lot. The tech and I went out to the car to check for CEL, none. We started it and it sounded irregular. The tech said it sounded fine to him, I said I drive the car every day, that was not a normal start. It was a weak start. So I just drove the car for a few miles around the lot. Nothing ever happend.

I parked the car and pulled the hood up, the terrible smell came again. Then I saw puffs of white smoke coming from the left side near the alternator. I turned the car off thinking I did not want this thing to catch on fire. I grabbed the tech and told him to smell it. He smelled it but had no idea what it was, he suggested it was just the smell of the burning fluids after the head gasket change and timing belt etc... I drove the car more and nothing happened. I got frustrated and just filled the rental up with gas and tossed my stuff back in my car to leave. I told the service guy and he said what about the leak? I said, that wont fix my car and I have to leave, I had been there for nearly three hours by then. The service guy said, just pull it around, I'll go grab the tech. I did and they got it into a bay and started the car. The smell was back and filling the entire area. It was real bad, but ONLY near the alternator. Not here, not here, not there, not under here, but RIGHT HERE! The tech said it smelled like a stuffed up cat. I said if it was the cat, why is it only HERE. He said its all about how the air moves around the engine. The trans blocks the smell from going to the other side, my ass... The tech then said, well what are you going to do? Staring at it wont fix it. I said, well you dont know whats wrong, he does not know whats wrong and Im telling you THIS is the problem that I brought it in for in the first place. The tech said, well you had a timing belts issues the first time. And I said well this stalling problem was what brought me here to start with. I said well I have to get to work, give me the car back, but I'm sure ten miles down the road it will die again. The tech said, well yea maybe. As I was in the service area the tech came in to ask me, has your battery light ever gone on? I said no and busted out to the car. The tech grabbed his DBRIII and hooked it up. The alternator was only charging at ten, and should be near 14. We came to the conclusion it was the alternator that was causing the car stall with no power. Hence the dash lights going dim when it does and the smell of dead electronics.

$135 for the alternator, $180 for labor and a day later I got the car back. That brings me to today. I saw the old alternator, it smelled read bad and was black in some areas. I picked up the car and got maybe six miles, stalled again. I forced it over and drove it home. I did some seafoam right away and let it sit. Took it for a drive and it was fine for maybe ten miles. Then I noticed in overdrive the car is going maybe 45 MPH and aorund 1500 RPM. It started to die out, real bad sputter, no power, horrible sounds. Pulled over to a side street and the car died while driving. No CEL, no codes, oil light was on again and thats it. I got the car to start again, it was sputtering and the RPMs were not going very high. I took it home and parked it.

Its not the torque converter, it still does this while in neutral. No CEL, new timing belt, tensioner, water pump, head gasket, alternator, lower mount, and belts. New coil, wires and plugs 20,000 miles ago.

What the fuck is going on?!?!?!

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:20 pm

The tech said that since there is no CEL he does not know what to do.

Damn, dealer techs have been reduced to this?

A bad TC can cause problems, even in neutral. Not saying it is the problem tho.

(I have had experience with a failed TC locking up the engine/trans assy on a 2.2 Sundance.)

Did you check the ATF for possible coolant contamination?

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:26 pm

I searched through maybe 50 other posts. I came across the one you just taked about. No, I never checked the fluid, I will. I just beat the hell out of the car on my last drive and it shifts fine. All the way to the max and was a beast on the expressway. Is the TC electronic? Why would a bad mixture cause this problem when ever versus all the time?

None of this makes any sense though. The car dies, the trans shifted REAL hard that one time, the alternator fried itself and there is no CEL.

And yes, this is what a tech is these days. I even said well SOME ONE has to have an idea of whats going on. There was not always a PCM in cars telling you whats broken.

Post by **occasional demons** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:38 pm

The trans might have shifted that way from lack of voltage, and the original code might have been erased from the voltage problem. A long shot tho. But when PCM's are trying to run on too low of a voltage supply, weird things happen.

The whole ordeal could have been due to the alternator. But one thing I would take a good look at is the fusible link near the starter. It might be half fried from the alternator shorting. If it is going out, it will still give you some voltage grief.

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:40 pm

occasional demons wrote:But one thing I would take a good look at is the fusible link near the starter. It might be half fried from the alternator shorting. If it is going out, it will still give you some voltage grief.

Explain more. Is it fuse an inline fuse?

darthroush · Post by **darthroush** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:26 am

It's like an inline fuse. If there is a short, it is designed to basically melt and save the rest of the system. The wires that melt are inside of a fire-resistant casing. They usually smoke a bit when they melt.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:14 am

It basically looks like a short section of wire. But it doesn't always show visible signs of failure. If you give it a decent tug, and it stretches, it is blown. It is in the wiring from the alternator to the starter. At the starter end.

Diagram shown in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=49812

stairmaster3001 · Post by **stairmaster3001** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:02 pm

i would just get rid of it

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:12 pm

It can be eliminated, but you run the risk of melting some expensive wiring, or watching your car burn, if there is a dead short from the alternator to the battery. His situation proves it is a real risk, not a probability.

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:43 am

Not sure if the problem is solved but I messed with the car today. I switched around some relays, cleaned my IAC, cleaned the grounds and found some strange marks on a vac hose coming from the air box. I'll post pics tomorrow but it looked like my CPS and another set of wires (knock sensor? the one right under the CPS) had their loom crumble away. The wires made marks on the vac line and looked like it was melted. So maybe they were arcing and causing my CPS to freak and cause the engine to stumble. Not too sure if wrapping them fixed the problem since it only happens when I drive it.

On a related note. Can the owners of 2003+ ATX tell me what their RPMs are at when they are in 4th and cruising at a constant 40-50 MPH? Thanks.

Forest Green 2k · Post by **Forest Green 2k** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:59 am

stairmaster3001 wrote:i would just get rid of it

lol, i would too. drag it into a dealer for a trade on another neon

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:22 pm

Car drove about 20 miles problem free. I was maybe two miles from home and it started to die out on me. I FINALLY got a CEL. P0171. It did not seem to be running rich, if anything it was running lean. I've got an 02 sitting around that I'll toss in soon. Hope that fixes it.

Any other ideas on what that code could relate to?

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:26 am

titansxt wrote:Car drove about 20 miles problem free. I was maybe two miles from home and it started to die out on me. I FINALLY got a CEL. P0171. It did not seem to be running rich, if anything it was running lean. I've got an 02 sitting around that I'll toss in soon. Hope that fixes it.

Any other ideas on what that code could relate to?

Interesting.

Shorts in the O2 sensor harness (or in the O2 sensor itself) will cause a shutdown of the fuel pump.

- Nick

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:41 am

This time it did not die on me. It just started running real bad. It was bucking and the RPMs were bouncing around. When I gave it gas it did not sound like a go cart as it did before. When I turned it off, before it could die, I had a hard time trying to get it to restart. It would crank, catch then die right away. Even if I tried to give it gas to keep it alive the car would crank, catch then just die.

Bad fuel pump?
Bad 02?
Bad injectors?

Maybe its because I've always had my radio on when I turn the car off, but this time I could hear the fuel sloshing around inside the tank as it was bucking. Its even louder now that I dont have the rear seat in since one of the speakers blew and I replaced it. I'm starting to think its not an electrical problem, now its mechanical.

Could the fuel pump go bad and start putting air into my fuel lines?

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:34 pm

If it was shorting, it may have been cutting power to the crank/cam sensors. IIRC, they are all 5 volt supplied. Irregular feed back from either one of those might be enough to make it run bad, but possibly not set a cel/code.

You wouldn't get air in the line, just low pressure.

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:34 pm

With the CEL that I got I'm thinking its no longer electrical.

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:50 am

1 ). What is your fuel pressure ?? Do you have a gauge, to test it with ??

2 ). Are you having any difficulty starting it in the morning ?? Excessively long cranking times, can point to a bad Fuel Pressure Regulator.

- Nick

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:05 pm

Yes, the cranks are long but not always. No gauge to test with unfortunately.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:15 pm

Check for a vacuum leak at the IM mounting flange.

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:03 pm

Started it tonight to move it and keep it alive. It cranked for a long time before turning over.

After reading the thread below I'm just going to assume its the FPR. Same symptoms as my car with the hard starts and dying issue. Does anyone have a P/N for it?

viewtopic.php?t=49645

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:08 pm

titansxt wrote:Started it tonight to move it and keep it alive. It cranked for a long time before turning over.

After reading the thread below I'm just going to assume its the FPR. Same symptoms as my car with the hard starts and dying issue. Does anyone have a P/N for it?

viewtopic.php?t=49645

Rock Auto has them under STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # PR319 {#5278631AA}.
5278631AA is the Chrysler part number, A.F.A.I.K.

- Nick

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:00 am

Thanks.

DoubtedNeon · Post by **DoubtedNeon** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:50 am

sounds like the same problem ive been having with my 95...

possible failed cps?

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:49 pm

The car died several more times and was brought back to the dealer just as many. They can't duplicate the problem so they just give me the car back each time. As of right now its still at the dealer waiting for the Dodge master tech that works this area to look it over because it died on me and would not recover so it needed to be towed. It threw a p0300 that time. Funny since thats the same way it died and same code it threw way back in January. Clearly my timing belt is fine now and they mis-diagnosed the problem. I'm also thinking, among a few other ideas, it might be my crank positioning center.

I'd love to tear into the car and figure out this problem on my own but I expect the dealer and or Dodge to be paying for this. I already spent money on something that never fixed the problem, I don't find myself to be liable to spend another dime on service or parts.

DoubtedNeon · Post by **DoubtedNeon** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:30 pm

ask them to test ur cps

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Fri May 27, 2011 2:00 am

Its fixed, well been fixed. Just an update for anyone else with a similar problem.

Replaced the entire fuel pump assembly, myself, in the driveway and it is running fine.

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri May 27, 2011 9:18 am

Ah, the old fuel pump gets hot, and randomly slows down/dies scenario.

titansxt · Post by **titansxt** » Fri May 27, 2011 2:20 pm

occasional demons wrote:Ah, the old fuel pump gets hot, and randomly slows down/dies scenario.

It sure is a classic!

dadmoonbunny · Post by **dadmoonbunny** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:37 am

NickKo wrote:
titansxt wrote:Car drove about 20 miles problem free. I was maybe two miles from home and it started to die out on me. I FINALLY got a CEL. P0171. It did not seem to be running rich, if anything it was running lean. I've got an 02 sitting around that I'll toss in soon. Hope that fixes it.

Any other ideas on what that code could relate to?
Interesting.

Shorts in the O2 sensor harness (or in the O2 sensor itself) will cause a shutdown of the fuel pump.

When this causes the FP shutdown, does it cause the FP/ASD fuze to blow as well?

- Nick

2GN.ORG

100% at a loss. Car dies while driving.

100% at a loss. Car dies while driving.

Relation?