need some help, car wont start.... ASAP please!

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:40 pm

so after uninstalling the turbo i had on my car, i drove it home and everything seemed fine. next day i drove to the familias and had no issues. went to leave and it wont start... wont even turn over! ive got power everywhere and am not throwing any codes.

ive had the starter and battery both tested, both are good. tried jump starting and have been on it with the multi meter allll day and cant find a solution. the only thing i noticed was the knock sensor was unpluged so natuarly i plugged it back in but still cant get the car to turn over.

need some help ASAP please!!! im at a loss on this one. whay else keeps the starter from running besides loss of power? please i have to work in the am and need to try and fix this tonight. thanks

nick

Post by **Canada** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:07 pm

Is it stick? Try bump starting it and see if it stays running...

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:29 pm

Have you tried swapping the starter relay for the horn relay? Might want to honk the horn first, to be sure that one works.

If that doesn't do it, there could be a few reasons why the PCM isn't grounding the relay. If ATX, the neutral safety switch could be bad, on an MTX the clutch interlock switch. Or Skim has locked it out for some reason. It should have cranked a few times before locking out if that was the case.

If the relay is clicking, Check for power at the starter solenoid, and the large terminal that goes to the battery. If the small gauge wire is getting the volts from the relay, and there is no response from the starter, then the solenoid is either bad. If the large terminal has no power, then the cable or battery terminals are bad. If the small wire is not getting volts, then the relay, or the wiring is bad, if the relay clicks.

If the relay does not click, you can pull it and jumper the needed sockets to get the starter to crank. But be sure the car is in park, or out of gear.

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:09 pm

sorry forgot to mention car is an 04 MTX. thanks for the info bill and chris

the relay is NOT clicking! i have tried swaping it with the horn and a couple others just to see if it would work. i also took the cover off the relay and manual closed it and still got nothing. i know the relay is good because i put it in the fuel pump spot and the pump kicks on.

ill try jumping it but i dont think that would do to much since it wont work with a relay.

anything else that will cause the PCM or anything from cutting power to the starter?

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:15 pm

Hmm, if you are manually closing the contacts, the starter should go, provided it has power and ground at the starter, and the solenoid works. If nothing else the solenoid should click. If you are closing the contacts, and the starter has voltage at the solenoid wire, the starter is likely shot. They don't sell replacement solenoids. Well some do, but for a few more dollars you can get a whole starter. You could try jumping the two large terminals to see if it motors.

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:19 pm

yeah the solenoid isnt clicking but i just had the starter checked and it tested fine... im so lost lol both the wire from the battery and the relay at the starter have power. all the relays and fuses are good but the starter doenst budge!

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:10 pm

Did you ever bump start it like Chris mentioned? Roll 'er down a good hill and pop the clutch in 2nd gear. See if it stays running, and that will eliminate some possible problems from the troubleshooting agenda.

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:12 pm

well im working on getting it put back together still lol but i will try in a few

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:15 pm

I had a similar problem before never did figure it out. I think neon4life (username might be wrong) had problem too. In the end I believe his was the starter. I'll try and find his thread.

viewtopic.php?t=54278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Not sure that will help. Maybe message him and ask him some questions.

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:25 am

wheels04sxt wrote:well im working on getting it put back together still lol but i will try in a few

Do Not do this!
If you know for sure the starter is bad thats one thing, but if you got any water in the cylinders at all and you go to push start it, it will throw a rod threw the block! I had this same problem already!
Now if you did not injest any water, then ok....
Does the fuel pump kick on when you turn the key on?

JeffM · Post by **JeffM** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:30 am

BlackRoseRacing wrote:Do Not do this!
If you know for sure the starter is bad thats one thing, but if you got any water in the cylinders at all and you go to push start it, it will throw a rod threw the block! I had this same problem already!
Now if you did not injest any water, then ok....
Does the fuel pump kick on when you turn the key on?

When did he mention he had water in the cylinders?

Pop-start that bitch!

BlackRoseRacing · Post by **BlackRoseRacing** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:33 am

JeffM wrote:
BlackRoseRacing wrote:Do Not do this!
If you know for sure the starter is bad thats one thing, but if you got any water in the cylinders at all and you go to push start it, it will throw a rod threw the block! I had this same problem already!
Now if you did not injest any water, then ok....
Does the fuel pump kick on when you turn the key on?
When did he mention he had water in the cylinders?

Pop-start that bitch!

I was just saying, I know he did not mention anything about it but I just wanted to throw it in as a precaution....

JeffM · Post by **JeffM** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:34 am

Meh, a little rod-knock never hurt anybody.

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:46 am

The other draw back with roll starting it is if it doesn't start, and he has no way to get it back to where he needs to work on it, it could be an issue.

Have you tried cleaning the battery terminals and grounds just for the sake of positively eliminating that possibility? Tried tapping the starter with a hammer while someone holds the key? Did you jump the two large terminals (bypassing the solenoid contact) to see if the starter motor winds up? I don't think it will engage, unless it is already there, and binding.

Edit: If the FP is not pressurizing the system, like BRR asked and the IAC is not making any sound when keying on, there may be other issues.

You could bypass the pcm and ground the relay coil via a separate wire wrapped around the relay pin. That would bypass any PCM related issues.

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:37 pm

BRR: the car wasnt waterlocked lol just wont start after i pulled the turbo off.

Bill: ive tried the hammer trick and so on and still have yet to get anything

those were the first things ive tried.

i have yet to try grounding out the relay to its own dedicated ground and bypass the PCM. so to do this, i need to pplace a ground on the starter ground, then ground that wire to its own dedicated spot on the chassis with the ignition on and it shpould start or?

UPDATE: the car DOES push start! i let it warm up and shut it off after rolling her down the drive way and bumpiong the clutch and it fired right up.

right now im thinking the ignition switch or... idk

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:54 pm

You would only need to run the ground to the battery negative. If the coil is getting a positive signal from the ign. through the starter interlock system, then it should energize the relay.

At least you know it isn't SKIM related.

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:11 pm

lol im glad its nothing to do with the SKIM.

im tearing into the ignition right now. my battery is in the trunk so ill have ti find a long enough wire to reach it. does that mean i need to unplug the wire from the starter ground to the relay and put the one from the battery in its place?

if that works what should i do from there? i spliced open the entire harness from the starter to the relay and all the wiring checks ouut fine... the plastic conduit just fell apart so i guess i needed to replace it anyways lol

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:05 pm

would the fusible link between the starter and altenator keep the car from staring? its the last thing i can think of...

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:45 pm

Damn, didn't know the battery was in the trunk. Just ground the jumper wire to any good ground, if it comes to that.

The fusible link should not keep the starter from working, as long as there is enough voltage to crank. The battery just will not charge, it would be like unhooking the wire from the alternator output. You would eventually get a CEL for target voltage I imagine. You also would have had a battery light when you roll started it. Unless you shorted something removing the turbo, the fusible link shouldn't be blown.

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:35 pm

damn.... well idk what else. whats the switch called that the clutch closes when you predd it in to start the car? maybe its bad? im working on getting it out now

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:58 pm

Clutch interlock or something like that. There may be an up stop switch too, both are on the same connector. Some have just the lower one. The up stop is mainly for cruise control cancel.

Post by **Canada** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:08 pm

Always park on a hill

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:23 pm

wheels04sxt wrote:
UPDATE: the car DOES push start! i let it warm up and shut it off after rolling her down the drive way and bumpiong the clutch and it fired right up.

right now im thinking the ignition switch or... idk

Hey man, I had the SAME problem. I could push start the car, let it "warm up." Shut it off, try starting it again and vrooom she started right back up. Let it go cold, and nothing. Basically my assumption to this was the fact that the alternator charged the battery enough to crank the car and start it. However when goes cold it (loses juice) try starting it, it doesn't have enough juice to crank the car, so just get a "whirl whirl whirl" sound... sound like the problem you're having? I tried the whole "ignition wire" . I believe it is/was a brown wire on the start that engaged the plunger? I was tapping that to the positive to shoot the plunger out... was fine.. like I said, I never did figure out the problem but like I posted above, neon4life had the same problem with his car. Maybe try getting a used starter and putting it in, cause im almost positive as silly as it sounds, it's the starter. Keep us posted. I'll find my thread from when i had this problem too, and see if there is any information useful to you in it.

Adam

As promised, EDIT:

viewtopic.php?t=38891&highlight=

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:45 am

adam: my car will only start if i push start it. i let it warm up then shut it off and it wont start again. cold or warm.

well ive got it dialed down to the "brown" wire from the relay to the starter. ive got power on the hot side of the relay but it will not close. im going to try replacing it after work today and jumper the relay again to see what happens.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:17 am

Hopefully the fixes it. Keep us posted. And sorry it was late when I replied I mis-read what you wrote. Well not mis-read mis interpreted.

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:28 am

lol its all good man. im now thinking i have two problems....

1) the said brown wire has to be shorted, broken, or otherwise f****d

2) either the ignition wire or the PCM ground has to be bad as well...

ill start more trouble shooting when i get home so i can get a better meter than the one ive got now

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:37 am

The PCM won't ground the relay coil until it sees all the parameters needed. If the clutch inter lock is not closing, the PCM will not ground the relay coil. A test light might be a better option. You could slide a small wire into the socket, and clamp the clip to that. Then ground the probe. Turn the key to start, to see if the relay coil is getting that signal. That confirms/eliminates the ign side of it.

Edit: Or as you have done, just remove the relay cover and use the internals to connect to. Much easier.

00Neon RCR · Post by **00Neon RCR** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:01 am

wheels04sxt wrote:lol its all good man. im now thinking i have two problems....

1) the said brown wire has to be shorted, broken, or otherwise f****d

2) either the ignition wire or the PCM ground has to be bad as well...

ill start more trouble shooting when i get home so i can get a better meter than the one ive got now

Get a piece of wire long enough to go from the starter to your + on your battery or have another vehicle and park closer to you. Take that new wire and put I on the plug where the brown wire is. Turn your key on, get someone to push your clutch in and you tap it to the + of the battery. That would be a good way to see if it lies in between the ignition and starter. I wouldn't remove the brown wire yet invade the said procedure does not work.

Adam

wheels04sxt · Post by **wheels04sxt** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:53 pm

well still no start but im pretty sure its the clutch interlock switch or whatever its called. anyone have an idea of how to remove it? its a PITA!

gtxtreme19 · Post by **gtxtreme19** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:13 am

I had the same problem, I replaced the brown wire from the starter to the pdc and never had a problem again.