MPx 60mm TB are BACK!

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:27 pm

DodgeEvo wrote:Why does it always have to say that it wont work on an 05.

The '05 PCM is more aggressive about the set parameters. So it won't let the difference slide nearly as much as the previous years. The TPS/MAP code apparently is a guaranteed problem with '05's vs a hit miss issue with the '03/'04.

The only time I got a TPS/MAP correlation code on my '02 PCM was when the TPS sensor failed. It also ran crappy to go along with the code. NGC doesn't let it get to that point.

DodgeEvo · Post by **DodgeEvo** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:37 pm

I see now. So am better off on just keeping the SRT 4 TB. Now if I get the SRT 4 TB bored out to a true 55mm, I shouldn't have any problems, right?

Post by **occasional demons** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:42 pm

Only one way to find out. IDK if it has been done on an '05.

DodgeEvo · Post by **DodgeEvo** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:48 pm

Well I still have my old 49mm tb that came with the car, so if I need to change it back I can. Like you said only one way to find out.

LilSparkPlug · Post by **LilSparkPlug** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:43 pm

occasional demons wrote:Well the SRT version would be a $260 paper weight. As with most things boosted, it does involve a bit more re tuning to get it right.

http://www.modernperformance.com/62mm-t ... -1113.html

Truth I forgot I paid more than $230. That thing caused so many headaches I hated it to no end. You NEVER got full WOT voltage with the damn thing. Mayyyybe 3.2v on a good day if you mashed the pedal in the most awkward position. There are tons of threads on it but it is still enforced that it's a "bolt-on" part. Threw the MAP/TIP correlation code....UGH such a headache.

Themaggots · Post by **Themaggots** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:55 am

LilSparkPlug wrote:
occasional demons wrote:Well the SRT version would be a $260 paper weight. As with most things boosted, it does involve a bit more re tuning to get it right.

http://www.modernperformance.com/62mm-t ... -1113.html
Truth I forgot I paid more than $230. That thing caused so many headaches I hated it to no end. You NEVER got full WOT voltage with the damn thing. Mayyyybe 3.2v on a good day if you mashed the pedal in the most awkward position. There are tons of threads on it but it is still enforced that it's a "bolt-on" part. Threw the MAP/TIP correlation code....UGH such a headache.

Isn't WOT voltage around 2.8 - 2.9 volt?

stdlystdmufn · Post by **stdlystdmufn** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:15 am

its normally either .5v or 4.5v. i cant remember which is wot and which is closed

trojmn · Post by **trojmn** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:12 am

occasional demons wrote:
DodgeEvo wrote:Why does it always have to say that it wont work on an 05.
The '05 PCM is more aggressive about the set parameters. So it won't let the difference slide nearly as much as the previous years. The TPS/MAP code apparently is a guaranteed problem with '05's vs a hit miss issue with the '03/'04.

The only time I got a TPS/MAP correlation code on my '02 PCM was when the TPS sensor failed. It also ran crappy to go along with the code. NGC doesn't let it get to that point.

hmmm if there was only a way to change the parameters that cause these issues even modify the "tune" if you will to deal with these issues... a 93oct tune would be nice also

/sarc

I get mine free, but AFAIK, no one has actually wrote the check to a competent w\ngc tuner to deal with it.

Tro

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:32 am

Yea, you should talk to your brother. He would be welcome here with just a change of tone.

trojmn · Post by **trojmn** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:33 am

stdlystdmufn wrote:its normally either .5v or 4.5v. i cant remember which is wot and which is closed

0.5-4.5v is the MAP V

Themaggots wrote:Isn't WOT voltage around 2.8 - 2.9 volt?

when the throttle is fully open the TPS on the OEM TB should see 3.5V-3.8V... i couldn't find my log of it but iirc commanded FA/WOT fueling happens around 2.33

Tro

trojmn · Post by **trojmn** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:49 am

esteinmaier wrote:Yea, you should talk to your brother. He would be welcome here with just a change of tone.

I'm sure he's heartbroken he wont win the 2gn.org Mr congeniality award.

It doesn't preclude people from writing a check to actually see/fix whats going on. In fact at least several on this board have regarding their SRT. Nor does it excuse the nonsense endless speculation about "NGC" dos and donts and discussions of about buying/throwing how many hundreds(thousands?) of dollars in parts with no way to log what actually is going on.

for god sakes if nothing else buy a cheap locked DSP and do some logging first. at least that's guaranteed not to be a waste of money.

Tro

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:18 pm

To me, the disagreement wasn't about the NGC at all. He's much more versed in it than I am. Heck, I'm sure you are too. I was looking for answers to my findings that directly contradicted what he was saying. He took it like I was trying to prove him wrong. Then the MS bash was just plain incorrect. Like someone saying windows 7 is bad, when they have been using mac since windows 3.1 was popular.

But I strongly agree about the logging. It would do wonders for tracking down the correlation codes, among other things. It's tough to try to make more power when you can't see what's going on.

Even my 95 with a bluetooth OBD interface was a great tool. I was tracking down some fueling issues, and it became apparent with the logger that as soon as it went open loop and STFT went to 0 that it was the source of the problem. Solving it on the other hand still hasn't happened yet though lol.

Troj, what are the benefits of running the DSP vs. the standard OBD loggers that work with any car?

neonrt_98 · Post by **neonrt_98** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:35 pm

occasional demons wrote:Meh, still think they should offer a limited number of 55/56mm TB for the '03/'04 ppl that throw TPS/MAP correlation codes. Or at the least gauge some interest. They don't have to anodize them until say, there is a group buy from one .org or the other. If not enough interest, finish boring them to 60mm. The only things needed are a different throttle plate, and the shaft if they want to mill it to fit the plate better.

I guess my point is, why bring it back, if you are facing the same problem "half" of your potential market had to begin with?

I would much rather have a 55mm tb for a 2gn too. The 60mm is an overkill for most 2gn's.

trojmn · Post by **trojmn** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:52 pm

esteinmaier wrote:To me, the disagreement wasn't about the NGC at all.

I'm not one to rehash it. personality conflicts have nothing to do with dealing with NGC at all or this thread.

esteinmaier wrote: Troj, what are the benefits of running the DSP vs. the standard OBD loggers that work with any car?

You should borrow one and compare. I dont know how much overlap there are these days for the standard OBD loggers, but the older ones certainly didn't support the specific dodge's highspeed protocol and were slow to log over the default 9141 ODB port. This limited the number of concurrent PID's and sample rate.

My point was if you are going to mess with it in the first place it would help to have an ngc logger and give one a better understanding why its acting they way it is. locked predators come up cheap and would be a good investment particularity if you ever plan to go with a rescaled SRT (you'd then have to pay to have it unlocked)

I use my DST to log general ODBII as well. hell Ive logged a 93 b-van, a Focus, and the wife's T&C at different times (all unsupported pcm BTW). There's about 10 pages of supported PIDs for the neon/pt NGC in the link below. Alot are general ODB some are dodge specific. Though they are marked for "trinity" you can add these to a template and upload to your DSP to log.

http://diablosport.com/images/MaxsNewOr ... idlist.pdf

I usually log a bit more that this and have wideband output overlayed, but here's a snapshot example of the data viewer. I have no idea if thats better or worse, but its easy to use. PIDs in the log are on the left, check boxes are what is displayed.

Tro

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:18 am

It seems like it's sampling somewhere between 6-8hz. Am I reading that right? If so, that's plenty to figure out the correlation codes, etc. Faster would be more convenient, but it looks like it's getting the job done.

trojmn · Post by **trojmn** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:01 am

Offhand looking at the TPS line id say more than 6-8 samples.

I exported that log to csv and get 75 samples/sec. Ultimately your sample rate is limited by the bandwidth of the port and the number of PIDs that are being sampled.

"The more BS you log the SLOWER the sample rate is. So if you're doing some serious tuning/diagnostics, don't log SHIT YOU DON'T NEED, it will just slow things down. With that said, I have logged over 95 pids at once and the slowest rate I have gotten was 1.2 seconds/sample."

what to log:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f384/wh ... og-484265/

Tro

esteinmaier · Post by **esteinmaier** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:29 am

Ah, that works. I'm used to everything being logged all the time regardless, at a flat speed of like 25hz. But for really sensitive stuff, that would be great to read even faster.

nerox · Post by **nerox** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:23 pm

Got Mine Today

But they sent me one for a 95-99 neon and i go back to England saturday WTFFF !!!!!!!!!!!!!