TB Done! (Now with P0335)

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:54 pm

Alright, so I've done a good bit of researching on this... so hopefully my questions haven't already been answered, but rather opinions...

I'm going to be going with the stuff from ModernPerformance, but the questions I have pertain to the crankshaft timing sprocket and cam seals... do I need to do these? I couldn't find much of an answer on the sprocket (as far as what it's for, where it is exactly), and are cam seals easy to replace while I've got the motor opened up? And is it worth the extra money to get the Gates Racing belt as opposed to the OEM one? I need to do my oil pan gasket also because it leaks oil, but I'm sure that's a much easier job.

So what I've decided I need to get are:

Mech Tensioner with Gates Racing belt
Gates Water Pump
Oil Pan Gasket
Thermostat
Gasket Sealant..?

Any other personal experience inputs? I've read that some people took a mere 3 hours to tackle this job... so I'm hoping it won't be too terrible of a job. Thanks guys.

Donkeypuncher · Post by **Donkeypuncher** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:32 pm

The cam seal is usually recommended, but the crank seal is more of an optional thing. I think the cam seal is more prone to leaking as the mileage gets higher. The racing belt is probably a bit more durable and nice to have, but not really necessary unless you have high HP.

I highly recommend changing the center motor mount while you're in there. Mine went bad at around 80k, about 10k after replacing the belt and tensioner. Had to tear it down again just to replace a $50 part.

sidepipe87 · Post by **sidepipe87** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:57 am

I agree with bill. About a year after i did the timing belt on my old car the center mount went bad and i had to rip it back apart to replace that mount. Go with oem belt since your car is stock. Its a gates belt anyway. As for crank sprocket you dont need to do anything with it. You will however need a 3 jaw pulley remover for Chryslers. They should sell or rent them at advance or auto zone

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:29 am

Cool, that's what I was wondering, if I should go with blue or OEM (gates) belt. And good to know I don't need to mess with the sprocket...

Here's a dumb question... What does the center mount look like? And why does it involve tearing everything back apart?

*edit*

Found donkey's thread, and saw the picture.

Is this what it is?

shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_mount-engine-transmission-anchor_20300272-p?searchTerm=motor+mount

NEON PARABOLA · Post by **NEON PARABOLA** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:46 am

Thats it, and like everyone else said, it is ideal to replace it while you have that side of the engine bay removed. Mine was shot and I noticed a bit more torque going to the wheels after I replaced it and my transmission mount. I would buy some window weld and fill the mounts if it were me.

Donkeypuncher · Post by **Donkeypuncher** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:49 pm

sidepipe87 wrote:I agree with bill.

Me too.........Who's Bill?

sidepipe87 wrote:You will however need a 3 jaw pulley remover for Chryslers. They should sell or rent them at advance or auto zone

Yes, definitely need one of these. Mine did need an extra 1/2" of clearance to unseat the pulley completely. I just stuck a hex bit down in the hole on the puller to get that little extra, you'll understand once you get to that point.

Some of the guru's recommends loosening the valve train bolts (lifters I think?) so the valves stay closed during the timing belt procedure. Keeps you from bending valves if the cam or crank turns by accident.

sidepipe87 · Post by **sidepipe87** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:27 pm

Donkeypuncher wrote:
sidepipe87 wrote:I agree with bill.
Me too.........Who's Bill?

Shit. For some reason i was thinking OD posted. Sorry.

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:17 am

So here's some pics from yesterday's endeavor. Being at work, and working on this between customer cars was quite a pain... and I had it apart for about 12 hours (start to finish)... I hurt!

Metal Bracket & Timing Belt Outer Cover

Finally! All the original parts of the timing belt setup.

Old/New Water Pumps

Old/New Thermostat

Old/New Motor Mount

Old/New Timing Belt Tensioner

So here's my question on some other things that's going on... when I first fired the car up, and had it hooked to the radiator flush machine we have here at work... everything went fine. No hesitation in startup, nothing... watching the motor, making sure the coolant was flushing properly... then the motor died. Just like someone turned the key off. Started it back up... it had a moment of hesitation, choked a bit, then "caught it's breath" and idled fine... then had a couple other moments of sputtering. Now, the plugs are about a month old and I just changed the plug wires last night (during the timing belt ordeal). It also has moments while driving where it sputters during 3/4 throttle acceleration (usually between 2.5k to 3.5k RPMs). Do you guys have any idea what could be causing this? This is new, these symptoms... like, in the past few weeks it started.

Also... if I did the timing wrong (if I didn't have it at the correct marks, etc.), the motor would've been toast by now.. right? After driving 25 miles home last night and 25 miles to work this morning...? Lol... Just curious, since I've never done anything this technical before (taking all the pulleys off, checking timing, etc.)

Anyway... thanks for the input! This forum rocks!

Donkeypuncher · Post by **Donkeypuncher** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:00 pm

2005.Neon.SXT wrote: Also... if I did the timing wrong (if I didn't have it at the correct marks, etc.), the motor would've been toast by now.. right? After driving 25 miles home last night and 25 miles to work this morning...? Lol... Just curious, since I've never done anything this technical before (taking all the pulleys off, checking timing, etc.)

Anyway... thanks for the input! This forum rocks!

I think you can be 2-3 teeth off on the cam safely before valves start bending. Not sure how it would run if the timing was off, or if that would trigger a cel.

I'm not real sure about the other symptoms, possibly the cps going bad? Seems to be a thing with the ngc neons.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:50 pm

You did torque this bolt to 85 ft lbs right? Well if you changed the cam seal anyways...

sidepipe87 wrote:
Donkeypuncher wrote:
sidepipe87 wrote:I agree with bill.
Me too.........Who's Bill?
Shit. For some reason i was thinking OD posted. Sorry.

I was like, wait, what? Did I post? Is his name Bill too?

r/tguy02 · Post by **r/tguy02** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:13 pm

for your intermittent sputter issue, did you mess with the cam sensor at all while changing the timing belt stuff? sounds like the cam signal might be cutting in and out, i've had issues like that before.

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:37 pm

I can double check if I bumped it or something. The crank and camshaft positioning sensors were changed last year summer.

Post by **occasional demons** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:33 pm

Did you clean the cam magnet with a clean rag before installing the new sensor?

They sometimes get metal build up on the magnet poles. It looks like gray radial lines on the magnet. They can make the sensor signal weaker.

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:11 am

Hmm I can't remember. I'll do that sometime today. Also, part of what's happening when the motor "sputters", is that the RPM drops a good 1k then picks right back up... It's the weirdest thing. If it ain't one thing I gotta fix, it's something completely else

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:10 am

Car went into limp mode last night on the way home from our Christmas banquet... throwing a P0335 code, which I know is the crankshaft positioning sensor. Now, I changed the cam and crank positioning sensors last year and I actually just took off the cam sensor yesterday and cleaned it up and made sure everything was good to go. How else can I go about diagnosing what's going on? If I messed up timing, wouldn't the car not be able to drive?

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:20 am

The car will drive with the cam off a tooth in either direction.

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:28 am

And won't cause damage? I'm wondering if I did anything wrong with the timing belt change to have caused the crankshaft positioning sensor to trip the MIL

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:59 am

Nope no damage will be done. Did you rotate your motor by hand two rotations after you aligned the belt?

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:56 am

The timing belt? Yes, I did two full rotations... But to be honest I'm not sure if I checked timing correctly. And I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this out there because I'm probably an effin idiot. But are there "TDC" marks on the crankshaft? I, for whatever reason, thought there were only TDC marks on the cam gear (and the inner timing belt cover)... I just really don't want to take everything apart again. FML.

mopar2 · Post by **mopar2** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:30 pm

Yes there is a mark on the crank sprocket. Maybe an arrow to line up or a dot. But there is a mark on the oil pump and a mark on the crank pulley to line up.

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:38 pm

FML. So, if I understand this right... If I didn't get timing correct, the car would not be running. And it can run with it being a tooth or two off. I made damn sure I didn't rotate the crankshaft or the cam while working on it all.

If it is a tooth or two off mark, would it cause the crankshaft positioning sensor to fail?

mopar2 · Post by **mopar2** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:54 pm

Well it will run a tooth or 2 off. Your powerband will be higher or lower now. As far as the crank sensor goes they have wiring issues too. A new pigtail does the trick.

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:13 pm

Hmm that's good to know. I did notice my camshaft sensor was leaking oil all over. What sensor is right below the camshaft sensor?

r/tguy02 · Post by **r/tguy02** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:09 pm

Leaking around the seal or the plug, if its leaking through the plug that means it went bad and oil is pushing through it (which would explain the rough running) if its the seal obviously just replace it

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:10 pm

So I just wanted to add this comment real quick. Was low on gas and on my way to a friend's house and had to fill up on gas... MIL went off... Wtf?...

And I re used the cam sensor... I just put sealant around the gasket. It shouldn't be bad, since I got it just last year.

Post by **occasional demons** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:13 pm

Meh, I RTV the cam sensor seal regardless. After replacing the o-ring a couple times, and it still not sealing, I silicone'd it and called it a day.

Shouldn't hurt anything. Just takes a bit more work to clean up on future removal...

Since you turned the engine by hand, there shouldn't be any harm to the valves, or it would have stopped turning if they were close enough to make contact.

Tensioning the timing belt could have pulled it a tooth off, depending on what side the belt slack was on.

You could pull #1 spark plug, find compression stroke, and put a long wood dowel in the hole. Then raise the piston to find TDC. Pull all the plugs so it turns easily.

But even at that it won't be perfect. The crank turns a bit while the piston is static at the top and bottom. You just have to move it back and forth slowly, to determine the center of the piston not moving. Then you could look through the inspection hole to see where the cam mark is.

But the only sure way, sadly is to pull the belt cover off to set the crank mark at TDC, and see where the cam is, or vice versa. Since the cam only moves half of what the crank does, the crank mark is easier to see if it is a tooth or two off.

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:47 pm

Ya that's what I used was the copper sealant stuff.

Check engine light came on almost immediately leaving friend's house. It was off for a good 10 miles after filling up on gas... Then came on as I left the house. Turned it off at the stop sign, turned it back on and it came out of limp mode... MIL is still on though.

Is there a link to a how-to on compression testing? And someone above mentioned the crank sensor plug being bad... Possibility? What about the PCM? Maybe the sensors, because they were "cheap"? (Bought them from Advance Auto last year summer).

Sorry I keep bugging you all about this but it just really upsets me that I spent money and threw out my back on doing the labor myself...

2005.Neon.SXT · Post by **2005.Neon.SXT** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:09 am

Another symptom my car had is that I can't start the car (for it to warm up) without it stalling after 5 minutes.

NickKo · Post by **NickKo** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:19 pm

2005.Neon.SXT wrote:FML. So, if I understand this right... If I didn't get timing correct, the car would not be running. And it can run with it being a tooth or two off. I made damn sure I didn't rotate the crankshaft or the cam while working on it all.

If it is a tooth or two off mark, would it cause the crankshaft positioning sensor to fail?

1). If your cam timing was off, you would probably notice a drop in power.
My guess is that, you are probably O.K.

You might still want to check the timing, for peace of mind, however.

2 ). It sounds to me, like your crank sensor is starting to go.
NEVER MIND that you already replaced it last year - It's possible that it is starting to go bad. ( Or that the wiring or connector going to it, is suspect.)

Where did you purchase the crank sensor from, last time ?? Was it from AutoStoned ??

- Nick

INVUJerry · Post by **INVUJerry** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:04 pm

He said Advance, still not OEM quality.