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Not starting... (UPDATE: PICs ADDED)

Post by ejclide » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:13 pm

Hey guys, I need help and I need it quick. I've got a 2005 ATX neon. I just got done doing some chassis work today and as well, I finally put in my lower dogbone mount. When I drove the car earlier in the day, no issues. When I was done with all the chassis stuff and backed it out of the driveway to park on the street, no issues, although I did notice more noise on the start, but I assumed that was from the stiffer mount. When I got back in the car to leave though, nothing.

When I put the key in and turn it to the on position the fuel pump kicks on, the lights will work, everything seems normal. But when I turn the key to ignition, nothing. The radio will shut off like it usually does when starting, but I hear NOTHING from the engine.

On a side note, I have checked all the fuses, all the relays (under the hood anyway), and they're all good. I did just replace the gauge cluster on friday with that from an SRT, and I thought maybe this was the issue, but I can't imagine it being the problem when the car has worked with no issues til today through many starts and drives.

Hopefully someone can chime in, and fast. My wife and I are trapped with our parents, and we need to get back to Dayton tonight! PLEASE HELP!!! lol
Last edited by ejclide on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by occasional demons » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:40 pm

Damn, stuck with old folks! :runaway:


Does the starter relay click when the key is turned to crank?

Have you tied jumping the relay socket with a paper clip to see if the starter does anything?

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Post by ejclide » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:50 pm

alright, just tried the jump, and the starter engaged and turned everything over as if it was functioning perfectly. It would not run however, and I did have the key in the ignition and in the on position when I tried jumping. So, I'm really afraid I know what you're going to say and I'm not gonna like it... :(

Oh, and before I tried jumping the relay when I used just the key, there was nothing, not even clicks
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Post by occasional demons » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:11 pm

So you have the fuel pump prime, all seems to work, except it won't crank with the key switch, but still doesn't fire when the key is on, and the starter relay is jumpered?

Do you have 12 volts at the injectors, or coil?

By any chance did you disturb any ground wires near the front?
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Post by ejclide » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:16 pm

All the conditions you mentioned are true. Fuel pump prime, everything seems copacetic, just NOTHING when the key is turned to ignition.

The only ground wires disturbed have been disconnected for a long time (the one's to the struts). I don't have a multimeter to check for voltage (it's at MY house....)

Looks like the car's going to the dealer for some diagnosing. I will be curious to see what it was.
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Post by occasional demons » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:37 pm

The reason I ask about the grounds, is because if the PCM is not grounded well enough, it will not ground the starter relay, or the ASD relay, which powers the fuel injectors/ign coil. Also it makes the injectors fire by grounding them individually, and breaking ground for the ignition coils.

Tho you do have a ground for the FP relay coil. That seems to be the only thing in the PDC that is functioning. Have you tried swapping the horn relay for the starter or ASD relays?
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Post by ejclide » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:52 pm

yeah, I have had relays all over the place. same old story. I'm gonna mess around with the wiring, see if I can find a loose ground anywhere before the tow truck gets here. fortunately Dayton is within my 100 mile limit so I don't have to make the 1.5 hour drive to pick it up when it's fixed! yay.
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Post by occasional demons » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:11 pm

Well, hopefully it is something simple.
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Post by NickKo » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:23 pm

occasional demons wrote:Well, hopefully it is something simple.
I hope so, too. :withstupid:

As Bill suggested ... You may want to check & clean the hell out of the ground for the PCM.
It's the one that attaches to the upper radiator core support, near the driver's side headlamp.



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Post by ejclide » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:55 pm

Well, I'm back in Dayton now. It was funny when I was heading toward Dayton and saw my car on the truck pass me heading back toward circleville where I came from... lol. Fortunately I knew the driver personally. I used to work with him at Advance, so I know he will take good care of the car. Yay for 100 mile limit on my AAA. The car is making basically the same drive I did, just without me!

Dealer opens at 9, so I will go and have a chat with the service dept and see what we can't figure out. While I was waiting for the truck I was checking every ground I could get my hands/eyes on, but to no avail.

I appreciate your speedy help Bill.
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Post by ejclide » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:00 am

Just heard from the dealer. Not even 2 hours and it's diagnosed and nearly fixed. Ignition switch. Is that a part that typically just goes real quick? I mean I've never had problems with it, then I hop in the car once and it's done...
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Post by ejclide » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:56 pm

Update:

Well, they replaced the ignition switch and it did not fix the problem. The service guy said they tore into the steering column a little more, and from what I remember him saying there is an electrical connector/tab on the steering column that is broken that the ignition switch uses to communicate with the PCM.

Then there's where I really gulped...

He said it's gonna be about 1500 to fix it.

F*$K me...

I'm gonna go to the dealer in the morning to take a look at it and see what's broken. If you old fogies have heard of this issue let me know. The 1500 is 1300 worth of new steering column.
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Post by theColonel » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:06 pm

ejclide wrote:Update:

Well, they replaced the ignition switch and it did not fix the problem. The service guy said they tore into the steering column a little more, and from what I remember him saying there is an electrical connector/tab on the steering column that is broken that the ignition switch uses to communicate with the PCM.

Then there's where I really gulped...

He said it's gonna be about 1500 to fix it.

F*$K me...

I'm gonna go to the dealer in the morning to take a look at it and see what's broken. If you old fogies have heard of this issue let me know. The 1500 is 1300 worth of new steering column.
That's why they're called "stealerships" :twisted:
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Post by sidepipe87 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:13 pm

ejclide wrote:Update:

Well, they replaced the ignition switch and it did not fix the problem. The service guy said they tore into the steering column a little more, and from what I remember him saying there is an electrical connector/tab on the steering column that is broken that the ignition switch uses to communicate with the PCM.

Then there's where I really gulped...

He said it's gonna be about 1500 to fix it.

F*$K me...

I'm gonna go to the dealer in the morning to take a look at it and see what's broken. If you old fogies have heard of this issue let me know. The 1500 is 1300 worth of new steering column.
My dad has a neon at work right now for no start. It needs a PCM connector (at the PCM) and possibly a PCM.

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Post by ejclide » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:02 am

alright, I got some pictures.

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This is the underside of the column. They tried a new ignition switch and it did not fix the problem

What the guy told me was that the part circled below was missing a piece that somehow activates the ignition switch. Apparently there are supposed to be two tabs there instead of just the one? I am not sure as I never looked before now. edit: a little searching and I think what is broken is the housing around the plastic actuator shaft.
Image

What I was told was that I could start the car with a screwdriver now with the ignition switch off the column. I'm assuming this means that with the key in the on position I take a screwdriver in the ignition switch and turn it?

Is there anyone who has a picture of this area or would be willing to pull their lower column cover and their ignition switch to take a picture and show me what this should look like?
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Post by ejclide » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:15 pm

Here's a better pic of the problem...
Image

So I paid the dealer for the diagnostic fee and I'm gonna deal with it until I can find out the cheapest way to fix this. I can't imagine that I can't just pull this part off of another steering column.

Until then, I've added a screwdriver to my keychain! :D
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Post by RayWolf » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:06 am

there is not easy way to say it but the dealership is right.

That shaft is what the key turns in the switch to start the car. Mopar only sells the entire assembly.

It is cheap pot metal and it can brake at any time.

I know it sucks but you might be able to pull that assembly out of a junkyard and swap it over.
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Post by jonnymopar » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:10 pm

I'll try to get some pictures of mine today.
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Post by occasional demons » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:38 pm

Bill
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Post by ejclide » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:23 pm

Score. Thanks bill
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Post by Midnight_Rider » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:57 pm

So is this a common age-related issue with Neons? I mean, will this happen to mine eventually? :shock:
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Post by jonnymopar » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:11 pm

I once owned a Starion that I had to start with a screwdriver. I guess it won't be a big deal if it ever happens with my Neon. :)

Sorry I didn't get pictures. I actually went right out to the parking lot yesterday and pulled the column covers off. After seeing pictures of the broken one, I was a little hesitant about taking mine apart, and unfortunately you can't see much with it assembled.

Afterthought: is there any extra stress on this part due to the automatic shift interlock? I've never even sat in an automatic Neon, so I don't know how the interlock works on these cars.
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Post by NickKo » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:31 pm

RayWolf wrote:there is not easy way to say it but the dealership is right.

That shaft is what the key turns in the switch to start the car. Mopar only sells the entire assembly.

It is cheap pot metal and it can brake at any time.

I know it sucks but you might be able to pull that assembly out of a junkyard and swap it over.
AGREED.... Junkyard. :thumbup: :thumbup:



The reason Chrysler is charging $1500, is because they are going to replace the ENTIRE COLUMN, rather than just change the single part that is causing the issue.
From a 'liability' standpoint, I can kinda understand, why a Dealership will not want to install a 'used' part from a Junkyard.


If this were my Neon, I would have it brought home, and either fix it myself.... OR have it brought to a 'general' / non-dealership independent mechanic, who has no issue with installing 'used' parts.
I have yet to meet an 'independent' shop that refuses to work with 'used' parts.....Sometimes, those are the only parts that are available, for cars that have been out of production.

Heck, I have been installing junkyard parts on my own Neons, for years.... :)


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-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
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-2001 ACR w/SRT T/B bored out to 55mm

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Post by theColonel » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:47 pm

NickKo wrote:The reason Chrysler is charging $1500, is because they are going to replace the ENTIRE COLUMN, rather than just change the single part that is causing the issue.
From a 'liability' standpoint, I can kinda understand, why a Dealership will not want to install a 'used' part from a Junkyard.

If this were my Neon, I would have it brought home, and either fix it myself.... OR have it brought to a 'general' / non-dealership independent mechanic, who has no issue with installing 'used' parts.
I have yet to meet an 'independent' shop that refuses to work with 'used' parts.....Sometimes, those are the only parts that are available, for cars that have been out of production.

Heck, I have been installing junkyard parts on my own Neons, for years.... :)

- Nick
liability is not the real issue ... it's more profitable to sell the whole assembly :twisted:
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Post by NickKo » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:18 pm

theColonel wrote: liability is not the real issue ... it's more profitable to sell the whole assembly :twisted:
Yes.... And that, TOO. :x :withstupid:


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-2000 Ply.LX w/MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; 2.5 exh.; 60mm T/B
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Post by ejclide » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:12 am

NickKo wrote: AGREED.... Junkyard. :thumbup: :thumbup:



The reason Chrysler is charging $1500, is because they are going to replace the ENTIRE COLUMN, rather than just change the single part that is causing the issue.
From a 'liability' standpoint, I can kinda understand, why a Dealership will not want to install a 'used' part from a Junkyard.


If this were my Neon, I would have it brought home, and either fix it myself.... OR have it brought to a 'general' / non-dealership independent mechanic, who has no issue with installing 'used' parts.
I have yet to meet an 'independent' shop that refuses to work with 'used' parts.....Sometimes, those are the only parts that are available, for cars that have been out of production.

Heck, I have been installing junkyard parts on my own Neons, for years.... :)


- Nick
The reason I took it to the dealership was because I was afraid it was an electrical issue that may have required the DRBIII to fix. That was the ONLY reason. Upon realizing the issue and what they wanted, I'm currently dealing with a car that I start with a screwdriver.

Oddly enough, the dealership did offer to get the column from a junkyard but said they couldn't warranty the work. They proceeded to tell me that they could get one for 300. I found them for under 100.

Suffice it to say I will not ever be taking my car back to these guys. The mechanic snapped one of the screws holding my steering column shroud together, and they didn't think to mention that either. I genuinely feel like they were trying to suck every dollar they could out of me.


On another note, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but DORMAN sells a replacement part for about 30 bucks on Amazon. 924-704 is the part number, and it's the same for a lot of chrysler columns. My 1500 fix just turned into 30.
Midnight_Rider wrote:So is this a common age-related issue with Neons? I mean, will this happen to mine eventually? :shock:
If it's something age related you are worried about, I think you have bigger issues than a little piece of metal in your steering column Gramps.... :D
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Post by occasional demons » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:20 pm

:thumbup:
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Post by ejclide » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:36 pm

When I get the part in I'll take some pics (with my new fancy camera) and do a how to for anyone else that has this problem.
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Post by occasional demons » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:28 pm

:D I was going to post a request to that effect, but was pushed for time.
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