sxt vs rt pcm

OB · Post by OB » Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:23 pm

Ive been thinkin about lookin into a magnum swap, and i want to learn more about the rt motor. Does the 03+ rt computer have different maps/programming than the sxt? would a mag head/IM/header swap require a pcm swap as well, or does the car respond to the mods safely on the sxt pcm? IF the rt pcm IS different, would swapping it (if possible) into the nonmag sxt make any gains? i didtn think there was a diff, but if you think about it, it would make sense to have upgraded fuel/air maps with a hotter cam and better flowing intake/exhaust system. just common sense. anyways, you guys get where im goin with this, please enlighten me.

also, my dream is to someday swap in the mighty srt motor. does the srt4 pcm also have the "NGC" shit that attempts to keep the system running as close to stock as possible? does dcx offer a reflash when upgrading the turbo system? sometime im gonna talk to you srt swapper guys about this stuff more in depth. this isnt gonna be happening for awhile though, so any basic info would be cool thanks.

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:37 pm

Ok, this whole post that I first made was crap. I was trying to simplify, and it made no sense. See UMKC below...

UMKCNeon04 · Post by **UMKCNeon04** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:37 pm

yes the r/t pcm is different. timing is advanced because of the mods, which is why u have to run premium. u dont need one, and in fact the work involved in getting one into a sxt would prolly not be worth it. i mean u have to first find a dealer that is willing to reflash a used r/t pcm, and there aint many. or u can spend the big big bucks on a new r/t pcm.

as far as the srt, yes it does have ngc. it is far less noticible i believe because of the staged upgrades.

OB · Post by OB » Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:46 pm

quick- im now thoroughly confused. haha! but i think i got SOME of the answers. i didnt realize i ask all yes/no questions.

so theoretically an sxt with an rt mag head/intake/header swap wouldnt make as much power as the rt due to map differences? why is the rt pcm not an easy swap, and why would it need to be reflashed by a dealer for it to be swapped.

ps what exactly IS a reflash (what does it consist of?) and why cant any good computer person do their own home-style reflash? i know some dudes on this site could prob figure it out shit. still waitin for someone to give it a shot i guess..

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:56 pm

orangeblastsxt wrote:quick- im now thoroughly confused. haha! but i think i got SOME of the answers. i didnt realize i ask all yes/no questions.

so theoretically an sxt with an rt mag head/intake/header swap wouldnt make as much power as the rt due to map differences? why is the rt pcm not an easy swap, and why would it need to be reflashed by a dealer for it to be swapped.

ps what exactly IS a reflash (what does it consist of?) and why cant any good computer person do their own home-style reflash? i know some dudes on this site could prob figure it out shit. still waitin for someone to give it a shot i guess..

I eliminated all the confusing crap. Sorry about that. I don't how much different the R/T ecu fuel maps are than standard, maybe not at all, but like UMKC, the timing is advanced. You can do the same thing with an MSD DIS2 ignition. You can't plug any other ECU except the one that came with the car into your car without the VIN being flashed into it at least, and also the SKIM info for remote keys if you have them. Otherwise the car won't start.

And if 'home-style' reflashes were easy, or even possible, trust me, people would be doing it.

I can't explain enough right now to answer what you're really looking for here....if you do a little searching, youll find it all. Everything you're wanting to know has been talked about a lot already.

OB · Post by OB » Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:58 pm

lol ok quick thank you ill look around

UMKCNeon04 · Post by **UMKCNeon04** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:52 pm

basically if you wanna go through the hassle, just go megasquirt, rid urself of ngc, and take full control. 3 or 400 for the unit, do the setup, and then spend some money on dyno time and u got urself something nice.

the hardest part of getting the pcm reflashed is that 99% of dealers will only flash new pcms for security reasons, and since a new r/t pcm i think costs upwards of 1k, ur much better off getting ms or just forgetting about the pcm. or like quik said, dis-2 can do ignition. im glad i dont have the r/t personally cuz when i run spray and turbo i dont want to be having raised igntion timing.

OB · Post by OB » Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:59 am

exactly what is 'megasquirt'? ive heard of it before. sounds like a male orgasm. LMAO sorry i couldnt help it. anyways, id prefer an AEM EMS, if enough neon dudes call and drop $krilla for em theyll prob hook us up. my friend used to have a geo storm (i know haha), and extreme dimensions let them choose a front, rear, and sides for a body kit, then said they would produce it if 10 people bought it. it all worked out i think. im SURE 10 dudes on here would throw down some $$ for an EMS, i think theres some serious racers on here. i know there are def some on the other org. so whats megasquirt and why dont everyone have one?

quicksilvr · Post by **quicksilvr** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:09 am

orangeblastsxt wrote:exactly what is 'megasquirt'? ive heard of it before. sounds like a male orgasm. LMAO sorry i couldnt help it. anyways, id prefer an AEM EMS, if enough neon dudes call and drop $krilla for em theyll prob hook us up. my friend used to have a geo storm (i know haha), and extreme dimensions let them choose a front, rear, and sides for a body kit, then said they would produce it if 10 people bought it. it all worked out i think. im SURE 10 dudes on here would throw down some $$ for an EMS, i think theres some serious racers on here. i know there are def some on the other org. so whats megasquirt and why dont everyone have one?

A google search for mega squirt, or a forum search will help out in this area. Basically, it's stand alone fuel management, that you yourself custom build and assemble. Mega Squirt is fully customizable. The AEM unit is like $5000 dude......I could buy a whole 'nuther car for that.

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

rice_eater · Post by **rice_eater** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:13 am

the main reason why 03 R/T PCMs are hard to find is because there were very very few for that last production year anyways; i considered doing the exact same thing as you, but i soon realized they may be quite hard to come by, considering not too many have had that much time to crash

megasquirt is basically a brandnew programable computer... you have to decide if you want to control spark, fuel, or both and according to that you let the stock ecu do some of the work or remove it all together. you will have to rewire all sensors and grounds, do a couple hacks to use DSM ignition modules, and then basically tune your head out. it comes with a wizzard to get things going, but the tweeking and finetuning is mostly up to you; you will be playing with more complex features and parameters, because you need to teach the computer everything, including how to idle at diff temps, cold start enrichments and the works. it's really cool stuff if you have the time and the passion for it; i installed and rewired my original project car (96 neon) with a TEC3R standalone and i can say that the actual install and wiring isnt hard at all, however i havent been able to make the car run for more than 10-15 seconds at a time before falling on its face; the tec3 is a bit more advanced, but it also costs a shitload more cash; i chose it because they keep making cool upgrades to it ( i can have it run a hybrid car if i was crazy enough) and they are profesionals htat have been doing this for like 30 years; the ms is basically programmed, designed and built by hardcore nerds/enthusiasts who want a DIY alternative to expensive standalones. has most of the features of aftermarket standalones, but code for some of them is still being tweeked or rewritten. realisticly, unless you go high compression, turbo, or just want to drop in a dohc 2L/2.4L i wouldnt trade the turn key any time any place reliability of the stock ecu only to gain a couple more horses; i suggest having a second car when you start getting into that kind of stuff, or you'll be riding the blue limo for a while

if this is your first real car, and want to learn how to do most of the work and maintenece on cars in general, i'd say stick to the slow bolton route and gradually improve your setup like tamadrumr; the experience and knowledge gained are priceless, no matter if you end up spending a lot more and being slower than if you had gone turbo from the beginning; you're gonna be saving yourself tons of cash by doing all the work yourself (and i dont mean CAI install, i mean doing cam swaps and shit), and once you have gathered all the tools you need in time, it makes everything so much simpler. then you can dive head first into forced induction and standalones filled with knowledge on what you want from your system and what you'll need to get you there...by then you'll be so comfortable with engines and hte way they work that you'll simply go, see what parts are available, and piece your own kits together according to your needs, while all the noobs will be relying on forum posts and blowing their shit up. SHIIT, just took a look at how long this post is...time to shut the hell up

nodestiny · Post by **nodestiny** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:20 am

What are the part #'s for both the base and mag motor computers?

OB · Post by OB » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:17 am

thanks rice_eater that makes good sense. if i was gonna mess with ecu tuning it sure wont be for awhile, i just like to ask any question i can come up with so that i can learn more about neons and maybe get a few ideas along the way for the future. for now im just gonna save and get school out of the way, and in 2 years ill be working as an entry level mechanice and be building a mean neon on the side. thats the 5 year plan at least haha.

marakka · Post by **marakka** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:13 pm

Ok.... know the thread died a couple of days ago, but search brought me to this one.

You pretty much covered the questions I wanted to ask Orangeblast. I'm a bit more advanced in my wrenching skills, but I have little knowledge about my car so I'm going to continue down the Megasquirt question route.

All right.... Running MS can you chose only to run fuel? If so what would my 05's ECU do with timing? Is the NGC going to negate any benefit I'd have from the MS setup?

About NGC..... what would happen if I installed a cam? Would the ECU recognize a difference and compensate? This NGC bug has me worried about doing anything to the car. I don't want to spend money on it just to have the computer take the advantage of anything I do away.

I'm in Germany and 120 just isn't enough. Anyone know of any way to rid myself of the governer?

So many questions.... so little time. *LOL*

UMKCNeon04 · Post by **UMKCNeon04** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:52 pm

ngc if there wont affect any gains by the cam. that is mechanical and it should not add more fuel or anything to compensate, which is mostly what its doing.

as far as the speed limiter, unless u go to an r/t pcm like talked about earlier or MS ur kinda outa luck since we have so many sensors getting speed inputs from.

u can choose only to run fuel with ms, kinda like a piggyback and let ur pcm control timing and spark. now how to set that up, i dont know. i know that since ur bypassing ur stock regulator, injector wiring, etc that the computer wont be able to send it back to stock.

marakka · Post by **marakka** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:27 am

Alright. I think I'm understanding a bit more but its still blurry.

Is the NGC learning? Is it able to recognize driving traits or something? Or did the little bit of mods I did actually affect the car that much? I put on a drop in K&N, srt cat back and msd wires. Thats it. But its now a LOT quicker than a stock sxt. My buddy thought he would be slick and try to race me, but I roasted him. Both are 05's both have less than 10k miles both are MTX.

Next question. I have a buddy with a 95 head laying in his basement. I was contemplating the magnum head swap, but as there are few to no magnums here in Germany, I have to use whats readliy available. What would the benefit be of a ported polished cam'd 95 head be? Would this head even bolt on? Or am I wrong in making the SOHC assumption that all are the same?

What about the ATX vs MTX throttle bodies? I've read the ATX has a more open throat? If this is so, what year do I need to pull one from to make this work?

Once again..... so many questions.

UMKCNeon04 · Post by **UMKCNeon04** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:59 am

NGC is still an iffy topic. the simple truth is that there is little proof as to what it does, or if it even exists. yes boltons will give more power, just not as much as in prior years. part of this is due to the fact that the intake and exhaust are already better than earlier models of neons. another reason base models at least dont respond as well is due to the lower compression over previous years. im not to sure on that last one but ive been hearing stuff on that come up. basically the ngc doesnt run off a given map like older style ecus do, but it sort of creates its own depending on conditions is what ive heard. this is why when u install bolt ons u will feel a big diff for a lil bit and then the car will drop on its face until something comes around to change the map(ie: when the temp drops dramatically here i notice a big change in power, and not just from ur regular cold temps. maybe that change caused a relearn). now dont try to quote me on any of this. i just post what ive learned over the last two years.

as for the head, im not sure on that one if it will bolt up or not. i know the 95 cam is slightly hotter than regular cams, but it is not near as good as the mag. and on 03+ cars i know the tb's were all the same size, atx and mtx.

Post by **racer12306** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:37 pm

with the srt pcm the ngc is negated due to the forced induction. many say that the only way to make big power is with FI or N2O. both of these add air forcing the pcm to put in more fuel. so since the srt already has FI, "problem" solved.

i think a real question with that is, what kind of power would an srt make with the exact same things if it were a non-ngc computer? and you cant count ms because its tunable.

marakka · Post by **marakka** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:22 pm

Well.... after a couple of days of thought, I'm gonna have to stick to easy bolt ons. I'd love to redo a head to gain maximum HP, but I don't thikn the stealer would like to see that if I had to do some warranty work.

Whats the most aggressive cam made for this car? I'm in the market for a header. Looks like a PITA of an install after looking under there. So, I'll have a drop in K&N and header, srt exhaust. with that combination what cam should I be looking for?

140 hp here I come. *LOL*

UMKCNeon04 · Post by **UMKCNeon04** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:14 pm

racer12306 wrote:with the srt pcm the ngc is negated due to the forced induction. many say that the only way to make big power is with FI or N2O. both of these add air forcing the pcm to put in more fuel. so since the srt already has FI, "problem" solved.

i think a real question with that is, what kind of power would an srt make with the exact same things if it were a non-ngc computer? and you cant count ms because its tunable.

i wouldnt be so sure. there are quite a few people out there that said that there turbo ngc has a/f irregularites not seen in regular pcm cars. the pcm can still adjust for the fi. ya, ull see power anyway because ur boosting, but its not free of ngc. it is easier to make power with fi.