TB vs. header

Jerome Adams · Post by **Jerome Adams** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:25 pm

What next? Leaning toward an MPx TB due to ease of install. I think I would get more performance out of a header though. Want to stick with short tube as I want to keep stock cat...

already have mag cam and springs...waiting to get a P&P, Cam gear to put them in.

Thanks

J8t4m · Post by **J8t4m** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:29 pm

Well if your planning on doing both eventually

I would do the TB first
Then in a month or so do the header

TB's seem to be selling pretty quick here and on neons.org - So even if you didnt like it - you could probably get close to your money back . . .

just my 2 Cents

OB · Post by OB » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:31 pm

from what i know the TB would be a wise decision if you want neck snapping throttle response, while the header's perf will depend on what kind and how long the runners are and whatnot. Id go with a TB personally, cuz its simple and cheaper. go for the header after that to complete the flow of the motor. my 2 cents.

J8t4m · Post by **J8t4m** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:34 pm

^^^ I cant believe I beat you to be the first responser to this thread OB : )

OB · Post by OB » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:36 pm

hey not so fast haha^^^

we said like the same thing lol. *high five!

J8t4m · Post by **J8t4m** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:37 pm

*high five back LoL

Sparky828 · Post by **Sparky828** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:26 am

i would look for a magnum intake manifold before the throttle body IMO but its all up to you...

J-Villa · Post by **J-Villa** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:17 am

get the tb....then do a whole new exhuast system....vibrant no good imo....i say sell it...get maybe a long tube header and srt catback or something else

half_twisted · Post by **half_twisted** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:49 am

E3EsXt02 wrote:get the tb....then do a whole new exhuast system....vibrant no good imo....i say sell it...get maybe a long tube header and srt catback or something else

what he said...

dblsg · Post by **dblsg** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:13 am

hold up.... doing a TB before the header isnt gonna do much for you, from my understanding. not a lot of air is gonna make it into the head if your exhaust is still restricted.

so i would go with the exhaust first.

OB · Post by OB » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:20 am

the exhaust has nothing to do with air making it INTO the head, the header would allow better flow OUT of the head and into the exhaust system. for bang for buck (not to mention quicker install), the TB is a good choice IMO. all the suggestions above are good ones tho!

CrashTeam · Post by **CrashTeam** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:25 am

If you consider a header, dont do anything less then a Longtube, you wont notice much of a gain with a shorty as compared to the longtube.

Also the most benificial mod would more then likly be to save your money and find a complete Mag head, then have it ported/polished.

dblsg · Post by **dblsg** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:26 am

orangeblastsxt wrote:the exhaust has nothing to do with air making it INTO the head, the header would allow better flow OUT of the head and into the exhaust system.

think about it... look at the big picture, its one whole system.

don't break it down into intake and exhaust. put them together along with the combustion.

CrashTeam · Post by **CrashTeam** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:33 am

dblsg wrote:
orangeblastsxt wrote:the exhaust has nothing to do with air making it INTO the head, the header would allow better flow OUT of the head and into the exhaust system.
think about it... look at the big picture, its one whole system.

don't break it down into intake and exhaust. put them together along with the combustion.

The engin can only pull in as much air as it puts out

In simple terms...

dblsg · Post by **dblsg** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:38 am

^ thanks crash, i couldn't find the simplest way to put it.

Knoxville_R/T · Post by **Knoxville_R/T** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:57 am

^^ i am with them on this one. Plus the neck on the intake is less then 60mm anyways. So pretty much you are only gaining throttle response.

Now I love my 60mm but you will see more horsepower out of a header.

-Brian

nodestiny · Post by **nodestiny** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:57 pm

Watch out! EXPERIANCE and LOGIC commin through

The header will give you more power and gas milage per dollar by quite a bit. The stock exhaust manifold flows horribly compared to a good short tube like the magnum header. The stock throttle body is by all means quite a ways down the ranks of your bottle necks. In the stock form, the bottlenecks are...

Intake filter
Muffler
header
head
intake manifold
Throttlebody

So, if you go in that order, youll see the best of gains. After owning the 60mm TB, and ridding of it, i can honestly say for our base engine, the gain is little-to-none, and i lost 2-3 MPG using the 60mm TB in a careful manner. Unless i build for PURE PERFORMANCE, i wont ever use a 60mm TB again on my 2nd gen.

The only thing i really liked about the 60mm TB is the reponse of the pedal. But you gain close to nothing. With the mag setup (which has a good header, muffler, head, and intake manfiold) you will see a small gain (as demonstraited by Diablo). To actualy see a gain that proves the TB a true bottle neck, you would want to Port and polish the head and intake manifold, as well as put a 60mm opening on the intake manifold.

You can do the 60mm TB, but working backwards on the bottleneck list will not gain you much until you come closer to the end of the list!

OB · Post by OB » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:57 pm

true, but im factoring in price and install as well. header would be a PITA compared to something small and easily removed like the TB. plus i consider throttle response a better mod than a few more dyno numbers. i bet the TB would make a better impression on a seat of pants dyno. i agree on the longtube, ive heard nothin good about short headers in neons. oh theres another thing. longtube header= needed exhaust mod=more $$$ and work. since the borla header is the same as the mag, wouldnt that be a good suggestion? what are the longtube options? few and far between?

Knoxville_R/T · Post by **Knoxville_R/T** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:12 pm

I would not suggest the borla since the stock magnum is the same thing along with an obx short header. Borla costs too much for what you get.

Now nodestiny, I have seen a mpg decresase also witht he 60mm tb but only when I am on it hard for the whole tank. If I drive like a normal person I still get the same mpg's. But then again I have a R/T. That might make a difference.
-Brian

J8t4m · Post by **J8t4m** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:14 pm

I would agree with every Nodestiny Said . . .

It all depends on what your overall plans are ?

ARe you going to be upping the whole system ?
and it depends on how much time you wanna spend and how much money . . .

the cheapest and easiest mod would be the TB . . .headers and Ex. mani. are exspensive and time consuming . . . its all up to you . . . just make your choice - nodestiny pretty much hit it right now the head : ) so your make your choice

nodestiny · Post by **nodestiny** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:36 pm

Knoxville_R/T wrote: Now nodestiny, I have seen a mpg decresase also witht he 60mm tb but only when I am on it hard for the whole tank. If I drive like a normal person I still get the same mpg's. But then again I have a R/T. That might make a difference.
-Brian

I realize that. I was disapointed with the gas milage so i babied it MANY tanks. Some tanks never saw WOT, and most likely not even 50%+ throttle. A respected member of neons.org backed me up, saying he noticed he gained a few MPG when switching back to the stock TB.

CrashTeam · Post by **CrashTeam** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:38 pm

Why not buy a Stock RT exhaust manifold, and take the money you would have saved over getting a borla or a POS obx (Bad experience) and put it to getting somthing good like a RT intake manifold, That would give you the ability to port its opening to 60mm and then make the TB every bit worth it.

Then your next mod can be the Rt Head and then you will have a hellacool setup!

Knoxville_R/T · Post by **Knoxville_R/T** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:21 pm

I thought that one would have to cut that part of the mag intake manifold off and have a 60mm piece welded on.

Jerome Adams · Post by **Jerome Adams** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:23 pm

Doesn;t a LT put all the gains in the upper RPM range? I do a lot of city driving and don't get to get the revs up as often as I would like. I would like a little more grunt in the middle of the rpm range...that is why I went with a Vibrant as opposed to something more open. I heard the vibrant gives you a little across the whole powerband as opposed to losing in the lower and gaining at high rpm.
I am not super pleased with the Vibrant, but if I went with something else it would be a fart can. Leaning toward the header right now. What was the bad exper. with OBX

dblsg · Post by **dblsg** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:01 am

Jerome Adams wrote: What was the bad exper. with OBX

fittment issues, but not everyone has them.. mine went on very efactoring in price and install as well.

orangeblastsxt wrote: but im factoring in price and install as well. header would be a PITA compared to something small and easily removed like the TB.

price wise, the header will be cheaper. OBX retail for 200 new, you can find them anywhere from 100-200. you can probably get one used for like 50, same as the mag... on the install, yeah it takes a little bit longer, but its not difficult at all. took me about 2 hours, and that includes jacking up the car

Post by **Canada** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:50 pm

Neonix has an OBX header, brand new with downpipe in the FS area of the forums...

Jerome Adams · Post by **Jerome Adams** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:22 pm

found a mag header online for 90 shipped...I know it won't give much but I don't want to deal with a LT for several reasons.

1. Most power in higher RPM
2. Have to pay to have it installed
3. Will need a small high flow cat
4. Will need to extend downstream O2 sensor or deal with CEL

2-4 add up to a lot of extra $$$. The magnum header should give me a few hp/ ft lbs and bolt right up to stock. Will be good if I ever get a P&P as well.

dawm · Post by **dawm** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:32 pm

Jerome Adams wrote:found a mag header online for 90 shipped...I know it won't give much but I don't want to deal with a LT for several reasons.

1. Most power in higher RPM
2. Have to pay to have it installed
3. Will need a small high flow cat
4. Will need to extend downstream O2 sensor or deal with CEL

2-4 add up to a lot of extra $$$. The magnum header should give me a few hp/ ft lbs and bolt right up to stock. Will be good if I ever get a P&P as well.

FYI the mag header doesnt have a O2 Bung on it, youll have to have one installed on your cat pipe or get a magnum cat pipe.

Jerome Adams · Post by **Jerome Adams** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:37 pm

dawm · Post by **dawm** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:39 pm

heh yeah, both sensors are on the magnum cat pipe, so youll need a o2 bung welded on before the cat on your stock catpipe. suck i know. ive have bungs welded on 2 different pipes (catdelete pipe and longtube) its about $25 at most muffler shops